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Charles M. Blow: Hello, Mr. Mayor. Thank you for being here. You have been mayor for a little over 200 days. What campaign promises so far are you proudest of already accomplishing, and which one is proving to be the most difficult for you?
Mayor Zohran Kwame Mamdani: I would say the one I am most proud of is putting our city on a path to universal childcare. And after housing, childcare is the most expensive things for working families. And what we have done is secure a $1.2 billion agreement with the governor to fund 2,000 free childcare seats for two-year-olds this year, 12,000 seats next year, on a path to a seat for every single two-year-old by the end of four years. And sometimes politics for New Yorkers, it feels as if it's almost irrelevant to their day-to-day struggles. But when you're saving more than $20,000 a year, that feels very relevant. And that's something I'm incredibly proud of our team for already being able to accomplish and all the work that is still to come from that. And then the promise that is still very much one that we are working on and will continue to work on for quite some time is to not only make buses fast, but to make them free. And making them fast is within the city's control and that we, you know — the streetscape is our prerogative in terms of our policies and our practices and we're doing that. We're gonna save New Yorkers up to six minutes per ride on more than 70 percent of all bus routes and working with the state to ensure that we can transform that system into one that's free and that's going to keep being a little bit more.
Blow: What's the hurdle there?
Mayor Mamdani: I think, you know, the hurdle with anything that has a cost is both to find the replacement of that revenue that will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars and also a shift in how we think about aspects of public transportation.
Blow: You have described yourself as not as an African American, but as an “American who was born in Africa.”
Mayor Mamdani: Yes.
Blow: You're born in Uganda, you stay there until you're five and you guys moved to—
Mayor Mamdani: Cape Town.
Blow: Cape Town, South Africa. Your middle name is Kwame. I think you're the first Kwame I've ever met who wasn't Black. How has your African origins impacted your life and your worldview?
Mayor Mamdani: Oh, that's a lovely question. I'm so proud to be a son of Africa. And as you've noted, I was born in Kampala, Uganda. I have the middle name Kwame because my father named me after Kwame Nkrumah who was a pan-African leader and obviously the first leader of Ghana in post-independence. And so, I always grew up with a notion of what it meant to be not only Ugandan but also African. And it has been a joy for my whole life to know that home comes from so many different places, and I can think of no better place to be at home than New York City because it is a constellation of so many from across the world who have those similar roots. And you know I met a Ghanaian uncle in Harlem at an event a few weeks ago he gave me a soccer ball with Kwame Nkrumah's face on it and all of his favorite quotes and now that sits in my office.
Blow: So, do you have any friends from that time that you keep in contact with?
Mayor Mamdani: Yes, yes. I have a number of friends, because you know I was in Uganda for the first, let's say, five years of my life. I would go back, would try and go back once a year, and so, there are a number of friends that I grew up with. And it's lovely because there have been times in New York City, I'm walking down the street, someone will come up to me and start speaking Luganda. And it just feels like this beautiful moment.
Blow: And you still speak?
Mayor Mamdani: I speak enough to, as we would say, you know, just enough to hustle.
Blow: So, you are the first Democratic Socialist mayor of America's largest city.
Mayor Mamdani: I have to push back on that.
Blow: Oh really?
Mayor Mamdani: I am the second.
Blow: Who was the first?
Mayor Mamdani: David Dinkins, the first Black mayor of New York City, was also the first Democratic Socialist Mayor. And you know, he gave us this description of the city as a “gorgeous mosaic.” And his vision is one that has stayed with many. It stayed with me as well.
Blow: I want to give you three data points for you to respond to. So, first in 2020 Democratic primaries on Super Tuesday, Bernie Sanders, who's also a Democratic Socialist, loses the Black vote in every primary for which we have election — election data. Then you run for office, you lose the Black vote in the primaries, win it in the general, and now have high approval ratings among Black New Yorkers. But last month in D. C., Janeese Lewis George, a Democratic Socialist-backed candidate who happens to also be Black, actually won the Black vote in her primary for mayor. Should we look at these as all isolated candidate specific examples or is something happening in the relationship between the Black electorate and the DSA?
Mayor Mamdani: I'll leave some of the assessment and the punditry to those for whom that's their job. What I will say though is the obstacle I found most in my primary was less of how I described myself and more of who I was. Because — and what I mean by who I was is that most people had never heard of me. And so, when I went to speak—
Blow: Was that a good thing or a bad thing?
Mayor Mamdani: I mean, it was a good thing in that I could introduce myself; it was a bad thing in that the first question was typically, “who?” And I remember I went to a church where the pastor very kindly ended his sermon by taking everyone through how to pronounce my name. He would say “Zohran,” they would say “Zohran,” he would say “Kwame,” they would say “Kwame,” and same with “Mamdani.” And I think in that time I was running not only against other candidates, but also against one particular candidate whose father had a deep and long and storied relationship with New Yorkers at large and also with Black New Yorkers. And so, I did not begrudge anyone not taking a chance on someone they hadn't heard of. What I was so thankful for was that support in the general election — which was at a point at which I had been able to introduce myself more.
And I think also when we talk about the affordability agenda and we talk about the cost-of-living crisis, every New Yorker experiences it — but it is not evenly experienced. And Black New Yorkers have borne the brunt of this crisis. For all of the conversation around fear of capital flight, there's a real flight that has happened: we've lost 200,000 Black New Yorkers from New York City over the last few decades alone. The population of Black children and teenagers down by 19 percent from 2010 to 2019. And that is a hollowing out of this city. So many of the most iconic Black neighborhoods now seem more iconic for the history than what the future could hold because of that fear of displacement. And to me, when you deliver on that agenda, you also deliver on the promise of Black history being something that can continue to be written in the city, not something just that we read about.
Blow: Are you saying that your economic agenda is — you’re hoping that it will address the Black flight, what — that some people have called a “Black exodus” from this city. Is that what you’re saying?
Mayor Mamdani: I think that it’s a critical part of it. And the reason it’s a critical part of it is that the absence of that agenda has driven so many out of this city. And we are effectively seeing the reversal of the Great Migration. And it's not for a lack of love for this city. You'll find New Yorkers everywhere across the country — they're still New Yorkers. They'll tell you they're New Yorkers. But they haven't been able to afford New York. And even the people you meet in New York City, sometimes when you ask them, “Where do you live?” Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Jersey City. They just can't afford life here.
Blow: Let's say that affordability is part of it, as you just said. What about the cultural part of it? I mean, so you've had thirty years of very aggressive policing, including stop and frisk, which disproportionately impacted Black and brown young men, vast majority of whom were not guilty. You have said that New York City has the most segregated public school system in America, your most prestigious high school in the city. Last year I think they admitted eight Black students out of over 700; this year, they admitted three. Then you have what you just said about gentrifying Black neighborhoods. How do you deal with this other part of it, the kind of more cultural part of it?
Mayor Mamdani: Well, I think first you have to recognize the scale of what we are looking at — and as you've said, the scale of something that is built up for years. And then you have to ask yourself how to deal with it in the short term, medium term and long term. And I think we talk about our schools — our public school system in New York City, our public school system in the United States of America — is one that there are many who would love if it [were] to be deconstructed and stripped for parts. We need to make this a shining example of public education. And so, I'm proud of our chancellor, Kamar Samuels, whose focus is on delivering a level of rigor in the classroom and an integrated school system.
And sometimes these kinds of things have been spoken about as if they're intention, when in fact they are reflections of what a successful school system looks like. And when it comes to policing, I firmly believe that New Yorkers should never have to choose between safety and justice. And so, to me, yes, I'm proud of the fact that we have the fewest murders and shootings and shooting victims in recorded New York City history over the course of these first six months and that we are investing in the work to not just respond to crime but prevent crime as well. And that also looks like ensuring that we are providing enough summer jobs for kids across the city, that we are creating the first Office of Community Safety. And again, that we understand that stability and cost of living isn't just specific to one kind of New Yorker. And what I mean by that is sometimes when I'll say cost of living, someone will think, “oh, this is only for tenants.” It's for homeowners too.
There are a lot of Black homeowners who have built stability only to have it snatched away from them because of deed theft. So, we've created the first Office of Deed Theft Prevention, and I want to acknowledge Councilmember Chi Ossé, whose leadership really paved the way for that. And similarly, we also found a property tax lien sale system set up by Rudy Giuliani that was six times more likely to sell a lien in a Black neighborhood than in a white neighborhood. And as soon as you sold the lien — fast track to foreclosure. And I used to work as a foreclosure prevention housing counselor. And so, we suspended that for six months and said: “Do a study to figure out how we can ensure that people are paying what they owe the city and that we're not using that as a pretext to kick them out of the city.”
Blow: So, your affordability agenda, as you just pointed out — and a lot of your supporters point this out — Black New Yorkers will inherently benefit from this. Do you believe, however, that you have to have policies that are specific or even exclusive to Black New Yorkers? What people call the “Black agenda.”
Mayor Mamdani: I think it's important that you have aspects of both of these things. Deed theft, for example, disproportionately impacts Black voters. We have to have an answer for that alongside issues that impact millions of tenants across New York City. If we see something that is a scourge, which is what deed theft is, that is predominantly targeting older Black New Yorkers under the guise of “Do you want help to transfer this property to the next generation? Do you want to refinance?” That has to be addressed. So, I think it is less of an either-or and more of an all-of-the-above.
Blow: When you were running for mayor, you submitted a written statement to a reparations convening that read in part, “New York City participated actively in the slave trade and furthered its legacy through racist institutions, policies, and laws. The city should reconcile and repair this legacy of slavery, stolen wealth and discrimination.” You added that you were proud to support the new reparations commission examining Wall Street’s complicity in the slave trade. One of these commissions is set to release its final report next summer. If a commission studying reparations in this city recommended cash reparations for people impacted in New York City, would you support that recommendation?
Mayor Mamdani: First, I want to say that I stand by what I submitted. It's the truth. It's not a personal assessment. And we often think about slavery and the complicity in slavery as being exclusively to certain geographic areas of the country. Here in New York City, we were very complicit. And so, I look forward to whatever those findings are. I can't give you an answer in advance of them, but I can tell you that this is critically important because this is also what it looks like to acknowledge what history truly was.
Blow: You and the president have had a contentious relationship, but you've visited the White House at least twice, and both times it seemed to be cordial. And last time you published a photo of you two smiling, saying you had agreed to work on housing in the city. But last week the president shared a video calling you and democratic socialists “hardcore communist bastards who must be stopped, criminalized and deported.” Now, you told the New York Times that this is something that, you know, you don't even blink your eye at anymore, but could you describe your evolving relationship with the president?
Mayor Mamdani: It is a relationship that clearly has many a disagreement. And neither of us are shy about their disagreements. I've been clear with the president directly when we've had conversations around ICE that I believe it's a cruel agency, I believe it's inhumane, I believe it does nothing to serve in the interests of public safety and that I believe it should be abolished. And I've also said that I look to those conversations with the president for ways that we can work together to be productive for the benefit of the city. And so, wherever there are places of agreement, whether it's on zoning or it's on the possibility of significant federal investment in housing, I will embrace those opportunities. But I will always be honest through it all and make clear where I stand on federal policy, much of which has really looked to upend the lives of not just working New Yorkers but working Americans.
Blow: At the end of your tenure, what does New York City have to look like for you to consider your term to have been a success?
Mayor Mamdani: A more affordable city.
Blow: Thank you so much.
Mayor Mamdani: Such a pleasure.
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