Mark Chapman: The mayor of New York City, Zohran Mandani, is with us. We were just talking about the positive effect of the USA – first of all – and their start to this World Cup. What have you made of that?
Mayor Zohran Kwame Mamdani: It's been incredible. First of all, it's great to be here.
Chapman: Thank you for joining us.
Mayor Mamdani: Thank you for having me. Thank you for being in our beautiful city. And the start that the US Men's National Team has had, it's given everyone just a sense of real excitement. We always hope and pray for the host nation's bump. But what we've seen from these first two games [is] that tonight is not a decider, but rather an option to see more players. That's more than we could ever ask for.
Chapman: Do you notice a difference in this city because of how they have started? Or is it not irrelevant how they have started, but very much below still what the Knicks did?
Mayor Mamdani: It's hard to compare anything to the Knicks. You know, we waited 53 years to win that championship. I will say that it does feel like New Yorkers have an extra spring in our step. And, you know, tonight we're very excited because we're going to be broadcasting the USA [vs.] Türkiye game on a number of kiosks that we have around New York City – LinkNYC kiosks.
Chapman: So, what are they? Sorry, when you say "kiosks," what are they?
Mayor Mamdani: When you're walking around New York City, you'll see these-kind-of-larger kiosks on a number of sidewalks, and you'll see [they'll] give you the weather; there'll be different updates [and] sometimes there are advertisements. And what we started doing with the Knicks is broadcasting the game on those kiosks. So, you could just be walking around the city, and you can catch the game and we're going to be doing that tonight as well for USA.
Chapman: Look to the UK audience. They may not know a great deal about basketball,
and we've talked about it a fair bit since we've been here. Okay, because it is such a massive story. And it doesn't matter if you know basketball or not. Anybody who supports a team to end a 53-year drought for something, everybody knows what that means. What have you noticed [that] has changed about this city because of a sports team winning as the mayor?
Mayor Mamdani: It feels like the Knicks transformed the biggest city in the country into the smallest town in the world. It feels like they created a fabric that connects all of us. And it didn't matter whether you've been watching this team for decades or you just started watching it in the final games. But everybody was living and breathing this team. And it felt as if time stopped when the games began. And the beautiful thing was some of it was organized [and] some of it was beautifully unorganized.
You know, we would watch – you'd go out and you'd watch the game at a bar, or you'd be in a backyard or at a friend's place. There'd be people who'd just be broadcasting the game on the wall across the street. And I think it just spoke to this energy that this team gave this entire city and the fact that the city could look at the team and see themselves, not just in the players. You know, Jose Alvarado grew up in New York City in public housing and is a son of Brooklyn and Queens, but also in the way that the team played. They really embodied the spirit of the city.
Chapman: You are a genuine New York Knicks fan. You're a genuine Arsenal fan as well, which I will come on to in a moment.
Mayor Mamdani: It's been a good year.
Chapman: Depends on [who] your perspectives are, I'll be honest with you. But anyhow, I'll bring these two with their Arsenal connections in a moment and has what the Knicks did and maybe even what you saw with Arsenal and how it affected London. Has that changed your perspective of where you put sport in your list of priorities as a politician?
Mayor Mamdani: I think it's shown us the intangible value of this game, one that sometimes is derided as if it's a distraction. It is a cornerstone of how people understand themselves in the world around. And, you know, you're asking me questions about New York City. Eight and a half million people live in New York City. And in the largest city in the United States of America, it can also feel quite lonely sometimes for people. It can feel as if they're alienated from those around them.
And these are moments that bring people together. And I'll tell you that for me, just individually, before I was the mayor, sports have just always been such a way that I've understood who I am, what I believe in [and] how I build my day. And I think that part of fighting back against the commodification of sport, the insistence that it becomes yet another luxury product, is also a recognition of what it provides so many people, not just in those 90 minutes or, you know, additional time. But frankly, even what it represents to so many more.
Chapman: So as a man born outside of America, when you came here, did sport give you a belonging immediately?
Mayor Mamdani: Absolutely. I mean, initially my sport was chess.
Chapman: Was it? Was it?
Mayor Mamdani: And I learned something that most people don't understand, which is that anyone can be nationally ranked because no one ever asks you, "Where are you ranked?" You just have to be national. So, you know, I was probably one of the lowest-ranked national chess players in America. But initially I fell in love with chess. And then very quickly it became soccer, football.
Chapman: What did you – what did you like about chess? Because it's interesting that that's where you started out, which is a very solitary sport. But you've fallen in love with two big team sports.
Mayor Mamdani: I think, honestly, it was just the people around me. It was as if there was a group of maybe eight or ten of us who just joined this club together. And so as much as it's a solitary game, I remember it more as a collective where we would travel together [and] play together. There would be a grandmaster who'd be walking around the room. He'd play a move against all of us. We'd be trying to scheme against him. And the excitement of testing your mind and growing your friendships at the same time. Obviously, it didn't stand a chance once I discovered the beautiful game, and, you know, [when I was] starting to play, [I was] maybe I was about seven or eight –
Chapman: Do you still play?
Mayor Mamdani: Every now and then. You don't understand how out of shape you are until you try.
Chapman: Really?
[Crosstalk.]
Mayor Mamdani: Mentally still out of shape, but you feel less embarrassed. But with – I mean, the other day we were playing pickup, and I felt something in my lungs. I didn't even know–
Chapman: You didn't even know you had something there to feel.
Mayor Mamdani: Didn't even know to stretch that.
Chapman: Can I go back? I just want to go back to the Knicks and your speech that you gave in the parade; which I was talking to a Knicks fan today. He said, "It was the greatest speech he had ever heard." And I have heard similar things from a lot of people, both connected to the Knicks and not connected to the Knicks.
And for people listening now, it is there on YouTube. I urge you to go and watch it. How important do you think you being genuine was to that speech? And would you have given a speech to that fan base if you hadn't been a Knicks fan? I mean, because politicians and sport [are] a very, very fine line to tread.
Mayor Mamdani: I think you just have to be honest. And I think that that honesty – sometimes it can even be an acknowledgment within it. And the beautiful thing about this moment is it is a moment for every New Yorker. There isn't a threshold of how much you have to know to be a part of this, to celebrate this. I think the important thing for me was, how do we take what these moments typically are when it's a politician standing in front of people at the celebration of a team that has accomplished this momentous thing and bring the focus back to the team as opposed to the self?
And if talking about the self and understanding yourself as a New Yorker more than as the mayor. And I think for anyone who wants to purely understand this in [a] sporting senses, they also misunderstand what it meant to the city. And we're talking about 53 years' worth of memories, worth of hope [and] worth of heartbreak. And we all know as fans and here also as players. Every year you tell yourself it's the year, you both believe it and you also protect yourself from fully letting yourself into it and to finally letting that guard down and believing and knowing that it's real. It was just a beautiful thing to be able to be one part of it.
Chapman: On the honesty side of things, you always have to be honest. Are you happy with this World Cup and how it's going from a fan perspective?
Mayor Mamdani: I am. I'm happy here in New York City. I think that we've made it clear from the beginning we wanted this to be a World Cup for everyone. And especially when you first saw those ticket prices, there was a fear as to how would everyone be able to be a part of this? And so, I'm proud of the fact that we secured 1,000 tickets at $50. This was part of what I had been running on, saying that we should continue the FIFA precedent of having discounted tickets for local residents and that we've also been able to secure making the Fan Fests, one in each borough, free. When I came into office, they were going to charge for them. And we did the work to make sure we took away that cost.
And then also to make this an experience of the city. You know, I love that we're here and we're talking about this not at the stadium but at a restaurant. And it speaks to the fact that we also want this to be a moment for tourists, as well as New Yorkers alike, to be able to rediscover their own city. We have 900 bars and restaurants [that] have enrolled in a program where it's a $26 meal deal. And we want that to also be synonymous with this tournament: affordability and everyone being able to do it.
Chapman: How difficult then on the affordability for you was it to square your beliefs and your policies with the transport prices?
Mayor Mamdani: You know, I think that – what you also – I've said this earlier, what we are also coming up against is this tournament means different things to different people. And in sport at large, there is this ever-increasing pressure for profit, for revenue. And that creates a tension with those of us who want this to be more of a memory and an experience that is in reach for everyone. And I think, you know, New Jersey Transit, for example, has tickets to get to the stadium that are about $100. And it's a decision that they've made. I also empathize with the fact they had to make that decision because they did that so that they wouldn't be running a loss. And part of that is a reflection of the host city agreement with FIFA. And I think that there's more than enough money that's generated in this World Cup, as well as any World Cup, for those kinds of costs to be covered so that fans are not the ones trying to have to bridge that deficit.
Chapman: Will you benefit in the long run from having the World Cup? And I say that as someone who's been to every World Cup since 2002.
Mayor Mamdani: Wow.
[Crosstalk.]
Chapman: But we often go there, and stadiums may be built and infrastructure is put in place. But then how much do they actually benefit in the long run when the circus leaves town?
Mayor Mamdani: Did you ever read that book, "Soccernomics"?
Chapman: Yeah.
Mayor Mamdani: Really stayed with me.
Chapman: And even if you are a massive Western city with so much success, you still have a lot of problems. Would you benefit as a city from FIFA being here?
Mayor Mamdani: I think we will benefit from this summer. I think that to your point, one thing I'm thankful for is a lot of the stadium infrastructure that is being used for this tournament is not being built specifically for this tournament; it's being repurposed. And that means that there's less of the albatross of the white elephant that hangs over you.
One thing we've also tried to do is make sure that any investments we make this summer are lasting investments, because we want this to be a moment where when you're at the next World Cup and the next World Cup and the next World Cup, you can look back at the U.S. men's national team and see a new player from New York City who got their start at a 24/7 soccer field that we opened this World Cup or got their start because we put the investment in additional lighting for night games.
Chapman: So, two quick questions, which are a bit more political. How difficult will having the president here be for the final? Bearing in mind when he was at game four in Madison Square Garden, it didn't go smoothly.
Mayor Mamdani: Yeah, I think that there's a difference in having the president at Madison Square Garden, which is immediately surrounded by an area where pedestrians [and] public transit [are] versus the New York-New Jersey Stadium, which is one that has a lot more of a buffer zone, to put it in one way, with the larger public. So, I think that they're very much prepared for that. And I think that we're very excited that we'll be having that final here very soon.
Chapman: And finally, when you won the mayoral [race] here, the mayor of Greater Manchester congratulated you in a tweet. He now could become the next prime minister of the UK. I'm interested as a mayor of a city – and I know you can't be president as long as the rule stays as it is here.
Mayor Mamdani: Let's not even introduce that possibility; I cannot be president.
Chapman: I know, but what I'm interested in is: Do you think the skills required to be a city mayor can easily be transferred nationally?
Mayor Mamdani: I don't think anything comes with ease at that kind of a level. I do think they are very important skills because many people have lost faith in government. The place [where] they earn that faith back or they decide to trust again is at the most local level. That's where they see what it can look like to have a government that delivers for them. And if you're able to respond to people, whether it's in Greater Manchester or New York City, it is at the heart of what people are looking for [in] any kind of politics. So, I wish him well. I don't think he's an Arsenal supporter, though.
Chapman: No, he's an Everton supporter.
Mayor Mamdani: I mean, at least you can respect that someone has suffered for a long time. No, but like I like it when I meet someone who's a fan of a team that hasn't just won and won and won.
Chapman: Well, I'm about to go to the England cricket team. Your Wikipedia says you like cricket; is that right?
Mayor Mamdani: I do. I do. I mean – but I feel so old now because when I think about the players that I would watch on the England cricket team –
Chapman: Who is your favorite England cricketer?
Mayor Mamdani: I don't know about favorite, but I just remember the days of, like, Freddie Flintoff, James Anderson, you know, Kevin Pietersen. You know, I go to his Twitter and I'm just like, what is going on? But, you know, those are the – I mean, I even remember the commentators who obviously were former players, but like I just grew up with listening to Nasser Hussain.
Chapman: Amazing.
Mayor Mamdani: I mean, these are like the seminal [ones]. We all grow up when you're watching Test match cricket. These are the players you remember.
[Crosstalk.]
Chapman: Listen, Zohran, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a delight to meet you.
Mayor Mamdani: It's a real pleasure.
Chapman: And thank you for all your enthusiasm about all the different sports.