Transcript: Mayor de Blasio Appears on WNYC's Brian Lehrer Show

September 1, 2016

Brian Lehrer: We begin today with our weekly Ask The Mayor segment with Mayor Bill de Blasio, and we decided that given the Donald Trump immigration policy speech last night, and given that we live in such an immigrant city, and Mayor de Blasio presides over it, that we would make immigration legal and illegal our main focus with the Mayor for this week. Let him respond to a few Trump clips in a New York context, and then take calls from you. So, listeners and screeners, hold your calls for a few minutes.

Let's get some of this on the table from the Mayor, and then we'll open it up for your questions and thoughts from immigrants and native-born New Yorkers alike.

Hi, Mr. Mayor, welcome back to WNYC.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Good morning, Brian.

Lehrer: So, here's a clip of Trump from last night on one of his main issues – sanctuary cities, of which New York is one. He talked repeatedly about victims of crime in sanctuary cities.

Donald Trump: Another victim is Kate Stanley – gunned down in the sanctuary city of San Francisco by an illegal immigrant, deported five previous times.

Lehrer: So, Trump equates sanctuary cities with the risk of violent crime for their residents. Do you agree at all with respect to New York?

Mayor: No, I don't agree. I think it is an absolute misunderstanding of the reality of immigration and of what our law enforcement need to be able to do their job when it comes to working with immigrant New Yorkers. Sanctuary cities – and by the way, let me see [inaudible] this is a basic though pattern that I have believed in and my predecessors, Democrat and Republican alike, have believed in. That we have to have an open channel between our police and our immigrant communities regardless of people's documentation status. And that is what allows New Yorkers who happen to be undocumented to go to the police with problems to report crimes, to provide evidence, and not fear deportation.

Now, sanctuary cities – I will be clear – is a deeper concept even than that. And I believe it's the right one because it takes that same impulse and says these are our fellow New Yorkers. We're going to respect them, protect them. They're part of our communities. A half-million people in this city – almost 12 million people in the nation – we're going to stop denying their existing or treating them like second-class human beings, and embrace and work with them because they're our neighbors – that's the core concept.

When it comes to the exceptional situations that Trump and others love to point to where someone is a violent criminal – we've made very clear, it's the law of New York City that anyone who is a violent criminal and is undocumented, there is a process for turning those people over to the immigration authorities so they can proceed with deportation. That's been very, very clear.

Lehrer: So, a New York Post article on this in March cites a sanctuary city law that you signed in 2014 – the latest version of it, your version with the current City Council – as having a big effect. After the law was passed, it says, "Immigration and customs enforcement officials ask the City Correction Department to detain 944 inmates in City jails between October 2014 and September 2015. But the Department transferred only 219 to federal custody – about 23 percent. That's all.

It says in the 12 months before that ICE made 3,200 requests. City jails transferred more than 2,000 of those inmates to ICE custody or 63 percent – records show. And that the new sanctuary City law passed by City Council and passed by you reduced it that far.

So, assuming you agree with the stats, is this a good thing for justice and public safety in New York?

Mayor: Let me say that – and I think your listeners may agree with me – the New York Post has a [inaudible] ability to provide un-contextualized information and often inaccurate information. The bottom line is – and by the way I've had this conversation with the Secretary of Homeland Security. There's a full understanding between Homeland Security and the City of New York that there's a host of offenses – violent offenses, drug offenses, serious drug offenses, obviously related to terrorism – that leads us to immediately turn people over. And those are all delineated in the law. It's dozens and dozens of offenses that activate that approach.

There's also very, very low level offenses – non-violent offenses, minor offenses – that we do not consider appropriate for turning someone over for deportation and breaking up a family. That's what our law says clearly. So, if the result of our law is that people who did very minor crimes are not being sent out of the country and their families are not being broken up, well, that was the intention of the law, and we did that out loud.

What the Post fails to tell you is that there's dozens and dozens of offenses where, in fact, we will work with Homeland Security. And Homeland Security understands that, and I think we've found a good protocol for working together.

Lehrer: And the Post article does say – and I'll read this so people have this context out of their mouth – critics say the – sorry, ICE says it now focuses on aliens who are gangsters, drug dealers, child predators, or violent felons. Critics say the City law shields undocumented immigrants who commit offenses including sexual abuse, prescription drug sales, bribery, money laundering, harassment, grand larceny, and drunk driving from federal detention and deportation. So, since I didn't read that clearly – to recap – the Post acknowledges that the City sanctuary law does turn over aliens who are gangsters or drug dealers or child predators or violent felons – does turn them over. But they still don't like the fact that – and some of the critics, the minority in City Council, that it protects undocumented aliens who commit other serious offenses including sexual abuse, prescription drug sales, bribery, money laundering, harassment, grand larceny, and drunk driving. Why protect people who are convicted of those things or arrested for those things from being deported?

Mayor: Okay, this is what I'd say. First of all, do not believe what you read in the New York Post – is a good rule of thumb. Second – I don't have the law in front of me, and I'd be very happy to have it in from of me at an upcoming show to go over the dozens and dozens of categories that are covered, and I think that that description you just gave does not accurately reflect the range of categories covered.

I think there is an important point here. On a minor offense – and we can all determine what we think is a minor offense but the law says very clearly what that separation is. It's a big question – do you want to send someone out of the country – and I'm not talking about anything, again, involving violence or anything that's fundamentally dangerous. But on more minor offenses, do you want to send someone out of the country and break up a family that's already here, which is what happens in a really high percentage of cases. That family is left here often in a very difficult situation because often times the person who is deported was the bread-winner. That has huge ramifications for this community here.

And on a human level – and this is something I want to say Pope Francis has done an extraordinary job reminding people all over the world – that immigrants and migrants are human beings first. We have to take away the national identifications and think, for a moment, about the human reality. If we're going to take a family and create a crisis for them over what – something that is quite minor. I think there's a huge moral question there too.

I think the best way to do this – and I would happily do this in an upcoming show – is I will happily read to the people of New York City all the covered categories, and I think it will show that the Post is being inaccurate.

Lehrer: Alright. So, one more thing on sanctuary cities. One of the proposals in Trump's ten-point plan was this –

Trump: We will end the sanctuary cities that have resulted in so many needless deaths. Cities that refuse to cooperate with federal authorities will not receive taxpayer dollars, and we will work with Congress to pass legislation to protect those jurisdictions that do assist federal authorities.

Lehrer: So, Mr. Mayor, what would be at stake for New York, there, as you understand it? When he says block funding for sanctuary cities, what is he actually threatening there? All funding for education, transportation, and everything? Or something more specific? And this is not beyond the realm of possibility if he's elected because' he'll presumably have a Republican Congress if he's elected. So, can you tell what the actual ramifications of that would be for New York?

Mayor: It's a great question. As with many things Trump says, he gives no specifics. It's very hard to figure out what he's actually saying, and he often changes his mind. So, I don't know what that means. I don't like the sound of it. And I agree with you, we should never rule out that something like that could happen. Now, I argue, what's going to happen both as a moral question and a political question is that this country, as a result of this election, is going to come to the conclusion that we need a comprehensive immigration reform plan. This internal division in our country can't go on any longer. And I think there's a lot of people, including the Republican Party in the House and Senate, who know that a very bellicose anti-immigrant set of policies would set the nation back.

So, I think this is Donald Trump trying to win right-wing votes. I don't think it could actually come to pass. I have no clue what the particular penalties might be but I can tell you very clearly, we're not changing. We believe – again, Brian, half-a-million New Yorkers would be affected by any deportation effort, and mass deportation effort. If you take away sanctuary city concepts then you're going to create a world where every day New Yorkers who happen to be undocumented will not feel they can go to the police when they have a problem. They'll fear that they will automatically be deported. It's going to make this city less safe.

And I think when that argument gets out, and a lot of law enforcement will say that very clearly, and it will be heard all over the country – I think even under a Trump presidency he'd have to back away.

Lehrer: So, listeners, now we'll open up the phones on immigration to New York, legal and illegal, for Mayor de Blasio. Do you support our sanctuary city law? And anything else you want to ask the Mayor regarding immigration legal and illegal in New York – and immigrants and people born here, people here legally, people here illegally, and people who are immigrants or not are welcome to call in. 2-1-2-4-3-3-WNYC. 2-1-2-4-3-3-9-6-9-2. As in our immigrant city, we're getting some of Mayor de Blasio's reactions to Donald Trump's speech last night.

Mr. Mayor, you referenced a minute ago, Pope Francis and people's humanity as a primary concern. Also, in the speech last night, Trump said, "Democrats and the media emphasize the plight of the wrong people when talking about comprehensive immigration reform. Listen to a few seconds on that –

Donald Trump: There is only one core issue in the immigration debate, and that issue is the well-being of the American people. Nothing even comes a close second. Hillary Clinton, for instance, talks constantly about her fears that families will be separated. But she's not talking about the American families who have been permanently separated from their loved ones because of a preventable homicide.

Lehrer: So, how should we the needs of immigrants and here illegally and respect their humanity and people born here when setting immigration law. You heard what Trump was getting at from his point of view.

Mayor: Brian, first of all, the premise that Trump's putting forward is absolutely unfair and off-base because he talks about a few tragedies. And we're going to do everything in this city, and we should do it all over the country to prevent those tragedies and make sure that anyone who is a violent criminal is not allowed to be in this country. They're not allowed to stay in this country. That's clear. I don't know anyone who disagrees with that. That is – as opposed to 12 million people who are integral to all of our communities – many of whom fled violence and poverty just like our forbearers.

So, you know, what's so broken in the American discussion of immigration is it forgets, first of all, we're a nation of immigrants to begin with. But second of all, the common humanity point – how is it that he can say, there's 12 million people among us who are essential to our communities, who do all sorts of work that is necessary to our economy, that they don't count in the American equation. That's what he's saying. 12 million people don't count and they are not the same level of human being in his eyes. I don't accept.

And by the way, again, I think a lot of business people, I think a lot of Republicans – if you ask them in private will say, we have a reality that's gone on for decades in this country. Millions upon millions of people here. It has been the biggest wink and nudge reality I can think of in American life.

There's been no serious effort to address the issue. It's grown and it's been unaddressed, and now it is a fixed reality in this country. So, why don't we deal with it honestly, and say, okay, these 12 million people have to become a normalized part of American life. We're still going to have clear laws about who can come in going forward. We're still going to have a way to deport people who should not be here because they're violent, for example.

But, seriously? 12 million people – including children, including hard-working people who are a part of the economy? This is just so broken. It's hard to figure where to begin.

Lehrer: You said the 12 million are essential to our communities, but let me play one more Trump clip. Late in the speech, he kind of tipped his hand, is the way I hear it, to what really underlies the fervor against illegal immigration. It's not so much the rule-of-law – like people should follow the law and only come in when it's their turn – as the belief that there are just too many immigrants and too many of what opponents see as the wrong kinds of immigrants. So Trump wants –

Trump: To choose immigrants based on merit – merit. Skill and proficiency. Doesn't that sound nice? And to establish new immigration controls to boost wages and to ensure that open jobs are offered to American offers first, and that, in particular, African-American and Latino workers who are being shut out in this process so unfairly.

Lehrer: Trump from last night. Mayor de Blasio is with us now, and we are at, or near, a record high immigration population in New York by historical standards. I looked it up this morning and I saw in the Baruch College website more than 3 million of our 8 million current residents are foreign born. It's more than half the population if you include foreign-born New Yorkers and their children born here – it's at around the peak of the Ellis Island percentage. Is that sustainable for the City?

Mayor: Well, first of all, the City is booming and the economy is booming in large measure because of immigration. 4.3 million jobs in New York City right now – the most in the history of this city – directly connected to the vibrant immigrant population of this city. So, we should be careful in this entire discussion. There's a fundamental misunderstanding here. Immigration has allowed the American economy to be strong over generations and generations. Second, what Trump just said would have potentially excluded my grandparents. I don't know about your grandparents, Brian, or great grandparents, or how many people [inaudible] – someone's definition of "proficiency and merit" could have meant a lot of people listening to me right now – their forbearers would never have been allowed into this country and that would have been to the detriment of this country and their families. So, this is really troubling, un-American stuff. We're taking the American dream, and a vision of this country that's now almost 250 years old, turning it on its head and suggesting that we're now going to exclude people. First, he was going to exclude based on religion, now he's going to exclude based on some "proficiency test." This undermines the entire American experience and all the values of this country. And what I hate about this discussion is, you can see what he's trying to do now – he's trying to set people against each other yet again. Now, his new approach is to set African-Americans and Latinos who come from families that are document against the undocumented. Well, again, I get back to Pope Francis – everyone in the equation is a human being, equally important in God's eyes. We have to acknowledge that our economy is undergirded by immigration. In fact, a lot of folks in the business community say we wish we had more immigration to allow this economy to keep growing and to bring in more and more people who could help it grow. What's wrong with the entire discussion is illegal immigration has been aided and abetted by the business community, the corporate culture of this country for decades and decades. Again, it's been a huge wink and nudge. The economy's been undergirded by it, everyone knew it, no one really did anything about it, plenty of people profited off of it. Well, the problem with Trump is [inaudible] key in to is not about immigration per se, it's about income inequality, it's about the frustrations people feel about technological change and so many other factors that made them feel left behind. People feel they're falling out of the middle class, or have fallen out of the middle class, so the immigrants become the easy enemy to point to. The immigrants didn't cause this – income inequality, and bad laws, and a lack of federal investment in job creation – there's so many other things that cause the economic pain that people are feeling. Trump, very cynically – it's a classic demagogue move – is making hardworking people who are suffering feel that immigrants caused it. Immigrants didn't cause it – the problem has to do with our economy overall. 

Lehrer: Just one follow-up on that though – when you talk about low wages, maybe the part of what he said in that last clip that economists might agree with more than other parts is his reference to low-income – or, let's say, low education – blacks and Latinos already here suffering from a low skill immigrant glut. Not true in New York?

Mayor: I think there's so much evidence that it's not true because, again, the economy has grown, an opportunity has grown because of immigration. Immigration has allowed us to keep growing in every sense of our economy, and that creates jobs for everyone, and there's so much evidence across the American [inaudible]. Generations upon generations said that formula was true. The problem that so many people left out of the economy have right now has nothing to do with immigration – it's that our education system has failed them, it's that we don't train people for jobs, it's that we don't invest in infrastructure. There's so many things that are broken, many of them having to do with an economy that's become increasingly unfair and unequal, dominated by a one-percent that has no regard for what working people need. That is the discussion – by the way, that was the discussion we were having in this country in much of 2015 and 2016. That was the discussion that Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders were having night after night, and I thought it was a very healthy discussion. If we want to get to the fears and the needs of working people in this country who feel left behind, we need to tax the wealthy at a much higher level to deal with job creation, to deal with infrastructure issues – all the things that would really create good jobs for every-day people. We have to change our education system. We have to raise wages and benefits for American workers. Those are things that will change the reality, not taking an undocumented immigrant, who, sadly, is making sub-standard wages, and throwing him out of the country. So, what happens next Brian? A documented American gets sub-standard wages? Is that what we're aspiring to? A race to the bottom? The whole discussion's broken and we should get back to the fact that economic frustration is based on growing income inequality and no federal policy for addressing it – that's what actually is afflicting the American people. 

Lehrer: Thomas, in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Mayor de Blasio. Hello.

Question: Hi. Good morning, Mayor. Good morning. I own a supermarket in Brooklyn. A large number of my employees are undocumented workers, and, you know, I have to say, they are hard workers, they do get paid well. Just, as a business owner, I'm caught between having these undocumented workers, which I'm told I'm not supposed to have [inaudible]. I'm caught between the regulations – I'm not supposed to continue employing these – how can I protect myself and protect them to continue working for me, or continue working for businesses like mine without causing more hardship on them.

Mayor: Thomas, I really appreciate the question and I appreciate your honesty about that challenge. It's the same point I'm making – we've created a fiction. Any nation with 12 million people in it who everyone on Earth knows – part of the economy, part of every-day life – they're our neighbors, they're the person next to us in the subway – and the entire government looks the other way all the time on it – it's a fiction. It's ridiculous. Of course, you're running a business, and if someone's willing to work hard for you, you're going to hire that person. And then you're giving them a job that they get to feed a family on and I thank you for that. We should just normalize the equation – this is why we need comprehensive immigration reform. They're human beings, willing to work hard, and help build up this City and support their families. You should not be penalized for hiring someone, and they should not be penalized. We just need to be honest about the fact – you know, when Trump talked about – he wanted to emulate Dwight Eisenhower and do a mass deportation of 12 million people, which I think would be repulsive to the American people, and would destroy the positive image of America in the world. A lot of people, including people who have concerns about immigration, immediately understood what a fiction that was. 

Lehrer: But a lot of Trump supporters would hear what you're saying, including what you're saying to Thomas, and say, well, it sounds like you're actually for open borders – the more the better – or that there shouldn't even be an E-Verify system where you have to prove that you're here legally in order to get work. 

Mayor: No, I don't say that at all. I think we absolutely need an immigration system that creates real standards and limitations, but that's a different matter. We're talking about – again, let's look at the fact that now for – I think since the law was passed in 1965 – let's use that was an easy marker – a half-century of this fiction of people being upset about undocumented immigrants and yet they're working next to you all day long and they're part of our communities. We've got to normalize the reality we have. We need comprehensive immigration reform to address the 12 million people in the right way. And it doesn't mean every single one of them gets to stay. As I said, people who should not be here because of, for example, violent crimes of course don't count in that equation. But then going forward we should have a legitimate and consistent system for determining who comes in and, of course, there should be standards and consequences related to it. My central point, Brian, is how on Earth we could continue to have a discussion that ignores the vast number of people already among us. They're not going anywhere, so why don't we deal with it.

Lehrer: Trey, in the Bronx, you're on WNYC with the Mayor – hello.

Question: Mayor de Blasio, I voted for you, but I'm going to tell you right now, sir, I am extremely disappointed in what you're saying. Okay. I'm extremely disappointed in what you're saying. I have with my own eyes and experience in the construction field – right there in New York City – how this glut of illegal immigration has forced the people who have lived here for centuries to not even get jobs in their own industry. All over Harlem, all over The Bronx there are construction sites that are jammed-packed full of illegal immigrants. They have locked out the regular laborers. They're going at a lower rate. That's why you're having so many accidents in the City with construction because you have people who do not know the safety standards, are not adhering to safety standards, and therefore, you have all these things going on while everybody looks the other way because as you've said they are saving a dollar. It is all about a dollar, but at the expense of whom – not you, sir. Not you. And I am so disgusted by this, I don't even know what else to say. It goes on and on, even in the housing industry.

Lehrer: Trey, are you considering a vote for Trump?

Question: You know what, I really hate to say it – I have not ever been a Republican. In fact, I am an Independent. Okay. My grandfather was a Republican. My mother is a Democrat – but I am thinking about it on just this one issue because I am fed up.

Lehrer: Mr. Mayor?

Mayor: Trey, let me tell you very straightforward – and it's not about me. You can think whatever you want about me, let's talk about this. If you vote for Donald Trump you are voting against your own interest. And I would strongly urge you to look that in the eye. This is a guy who is a billionaire, who has been about creating the exact system that created this reality. The billionaire's class in this country aided and abetted this reality and profited off of it. And you have not been – your needs have not been addressed by the billionaires of this country, your needs have not been addressed by Donald Trump ever. And so, if you vote for him and then you find that your situation becomes worst don't be surprised. He's a guy who wants to give massive tax breaks to the wealthy. He has regard for working people. Look at all the – his businesses. Look at the way he has treated working people. So, you would be stabbing a knife in your own back, but to the question of what is going on in construction. In fact, if everyone was legalized; if everyone was given the opportunity to be part of this country, they could not be paid substandard wages. It would allow us to go at this problem across the board. You're right there is a problem with construction in this City. I want to see construction done in a much safer way. That's why we have changed a lot of the rules and laws around construction. I want more and more union construction, but the fact is an immigration system that looks the other way at 12 million people isn't helping us achieve those changes. If everyone has an opportunity, a pathway to American citizenship – those who should – obviously again, exempting those who for specific reasons should be excluded. But if the vast majority of the hardworking folks who are here among us have a pathway to American citizenship then they are normalized. They're out in the open. They have to be paid minimum wage. They get regulated; it's a whole different ballgame. So, Trump's not going to deport 12 million people. He's lying to you. There's no way in the world that can happen. He's going to just continue the problem. Hillary Clinton is talking about comprehensive immigration reform that would actually allow us to fix the very thing you're talking about.

Lehrer: Listeners, we'll talk more about the Trump immigration speech and his visit to Mexico with other guests as the program goes on.

Mr. Mayor, before you go I want to ask you about one other topic in the news this week. I believe you haven't taken a position yet on the debate over whether State law should be changed so the NYPD is forced to release disciplinary actions that they take against police officers. This is relevant to the internal proceedings involving officers in the Eric Garner case right now for example. Do you have a position on that?

Mayor: Yes, and Brian you're the first person to ask it that way and I appreciate it. So, let me first say, I believe we should change the State law and make these records public. What I said – the question was asked to me before was can we defy the State law. No, the current State law we have to honor. It does not allow transparency; it does not allow these types of records to be made public. I believe we should change that State law in the name of transparency. And I am happy to work with people to achieve that change. The City of New York is never going to violate an existing State law, but I would welcome a change that gives us the opportunity to provide more transparency. And when there's a disciplinary action against an officer that is something that can be made appropriately public.

Lehrer: You say the City would never violate State law, but as I understand it the NYPD was releasing this kind of information until recently and then suddenly decided to stop. Did they stop with your knowledge or approval?

Mayor: No, I think what people have to understand is that government is huge and complexed and sometimes things happen when the left hand and right hands are not coordinated. When our Law Department and the Law Division at the NYPD realized that release had been going on they instantly realized it was a violation of State Law and they stopped it, but I want to be clear –

Lehrer: It's been the law and I guess the practice against the law for 40 years, right?

Mayor: Brian, you know what? I've seen a lot of things in this City. It sadly doesn't surprise me that something could have happened for a long time and people didn't put two and two together. But I think the clearer reality here is now that the issue has been raised appropriately and the question is being called, let's go to Albany and let's change that law so there can be the right kind of transparency. I believe that would be good for everyone.

Lehrer: Albany hangs up New York City time and time again. Do you think there's any realistic possibility of that? So, New Yorkers could know for example what the disciplinary action is against any of the cops involved in the Eric Garner case.

Mayor: Yeah – I think – look, I think a lot of police leaders believe this is the right thing to do as a question of the integrity of their forces and making clearer there are consequences for inappropriate actions. I think the public believes in transparency, obviously. I think in the atmosphere in this country when real issues between police and community are being discussed more bluntly than ever before, it is very hard for our legislators to say there should not be transparency. So, yes I think a law worded the right way that would support transparency on these disciplinary actions could pass in Albany.

Lehrer: And, do you have an opinion on the proper discipline for any of the Garner incident officers or the sergeant on the scene? I guess this is still in process –

Mayor: No, I never – I will be very consistent on this. There are checks and balances. There's due process. There's a process in every case. It's not the right place for any mayor to editorialize on that. Right now, on the Garner situation the Justice Department has to decide – and I talked to Attorney General Loretta Lynch about this a month or two ago – they have to decide if they will bring charges against any of the officers involved. And we will not act until the Justice Department has made its decision. If they bring charges then, of course, there will be a trial. If they don't bring charges there will be an internal process – the NYPD. But that comes with a due process that has to be gone through formally where the Commissioner makes the ultimate decision at the end of that administrative hearing or trial. So, it's not my place to editorialize on that.

Lehrer: Mr. Mayor thanks as always. We'll talk to you next week.

Mayor: Thank you, Brian.