Transcript: Mayor de Blasio Appears Live on WNYC’s Brian Lehrer Show

July 8, 2016

Brian Lehrer: It’s the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. And continuing our coverage of the events in Dallas and throughout this week – a few updates from Dallas.

Mayor Rawlings, there, says a bullet went straight through the leg of one police officer as snipers fatally shot three members of his squad during a protest in downtown Dallas. Rawlings said he spoke to the wounded officer, and that the officer expressed sorrow after his loss. And he felt that people don’t understand the danger of dealing with the protests. The mayor there said it’s important to uphold the right of people to protest but that more care needs to be taken to ensure the safety of police officers at such events.

The police chief, David Brown, says authorities are still not certain they’ve identified everyone involved in the attack. Brown said that investigators have not ruled out that others may have been involved in the attacks that left a total of 12 officers and two civilians shot.

And apparently police are saying they detonated a bomb that killed one of the suspects who was holding out. And sure enough that suspect had been saying to police during that hours-long stand-off that not only was he going to shoot other police officers, but that he had a bomb.

Now, on the political campaign trail, we’re learning that Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have both called off political events for today. Trump, who had planned to address Hispanics in Miami issued a statement calling the shootings a “coordinated, premeditated assault on the men and women who keep us safe.” He said, “The earlier deaths of two black men in Louisiana and Minnesota were a reminder of how much more needs to be done to restore public confidence in law and order.” So, Trump not completely dismissing that concern.

Clinton said she, “mourned the officers killed while doing their sacred duty to protect peaceful protesters.” She postponed a rally in Philadelphia with Vice President Biden but still planned to travel to Philadelphia today for a scheduled appearance at the African Methodist Episcopal Convention.

Mayor de Blasio joins us now for our weekly Ask The Mayor segment, and considering the events of this week, we’ll talk largely about policing, guns, race, violence, and justice – and we may touch on some other news.

But listeners, our phones are open for any Ask The Mayor calls at 2-1-2-4-3-3-WNYC, 4-3-3-9-6-9-2.

And Mr. Mayor, welcome back to WNYC.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Thank you, Brian. What a painful day for this country. And I just want to say upfront, you know, this week has been so difficult in so many ways. But an attack on our police is an attack on all of us. It’s fundamentally unacceptable. It undermines, you know, our entire democratic society.

And I want to emphasize, we’re going to take a number of precautions today. I’ll be meeting with Commissioner Bratton and his senior leadership later in the morning at Police Plaza. And we’re going to be taking a number of precautions to keep our officers safe.

All our officers have been instructed to go on two-officer patrols – not to be solo today. And we will have a very large presence at any protests that are planned to really make sure things are very well controlled.

So, you know, this is painful. And I want to just urge all listeners – whatever you feel politically, recognize that our police officers are hurting today. There’s a deep sense of connection among officers all over the country because of the life – the life they devote themselves to, and the fact they put their lives on the line for us. And they’re hurting. And as you see officers today, recognize it’s important to thank them and offer them condolences because they feel, in effect, that a member of their family or members of their family – five, a shocking number – have been lost.

Lehrer: Do you have any reason to believe that there could be any such organized planning against NYPD officers like what we saw in Dallas?

Mayor: No. Thank God. Commissioner Bratton and I discussed that this morning. And we have no evidence of that but we’re going to be very vigilant. There’s obviously a real concern that until we know more, we are going to exercise an abundance of caution.

There are other protests expected again. There’s going to be a very, very strong police presence to make sure that things are handled properly. And we’re going to be looking carefully to see if there’s anything that indicates a bigger pattern. But at this moment, Brian, no, we have no indication of anything directed at New York.

Lehrer: And at the same time, of course, everyone is mourning the two killings by police in the news this week in Louisiana and Minnesota. We have the capacity, don’t we, to mourn all the victims and be angry about what those videos appear to show without disrespecting the police officers who were murdered in Dallas?

Mayor: Yes. We absolutely have to be able to do both so that we can end the violence in all its forms. I mean, look, our officers are out there protecting us. We have to restore a deep relationship, and a positive relationship between police and community. That is the key to everything – to everyday safety, to ending these horrible and painful instances like we saw in the other states. And certainly, we have to make sure no one ever is violent towards a police officer.

And so, you know, all of these things go together. We’ve got to change the tone in this country. We’ve got to create trust. But it will only happen if we air openly the concerns and the needs of everyone. Each part of the equation matters. And our police feel embattled, and they feel, often, misunderstood and disrespected while they’re trying to protect us. And I’ve talked to a lot of police officers who feel that profoundly and are trying with everything they have in them to do the right thing.

But this backdrop is very painful for them. And this only makes it much worse. At the same time, the grievances of so many community members are based on decades and even centuries of pain.

So, we’ve got to air it out and we’ve got to move past it. And I fundamentally believe it will only happen through a very open dialogue and some very serious changes. I talked yesterday about the importance of retraining police officers and the importance of body cameras. But we also have to make clear to community members across the board how important it is to work with police. Share information with police. Listen to police. Try – it’s a two-way street – everyone’s got to try and build that different kind of relationship.

Lehrer: When you said yesterday that no parent of a child of color in this country can watch these videos and not be afraid, it reminded me of when you said something like that after the incidents two years ago. And then many police officers felt abandoned by you, and then later turned their backs on you after the killing of the two NYPD officers that December. Do you think your comments this time should be heard as different from in 2014?

Mayor: I think we have to have a different kind of dialogue to begin with. What I was saying in 2014 – and I have affirmed it since – is just a fact of life in America that we have to grapple with. It’s not meant to be negative toward any individual, it’s just a statement of fact we have to deal with. And the events earlier in the week only compounded it.

But at the same time, look, there’s so many ways we have to support our officers. And I think this is part of the bridge we have to build. Here in this city, we have 2,000 more officers who will be on patrol by the end of this year. That is part of not only keeping people safe, but demonstrating very vividly to our officers that we will do the things to keep them safe. And the additional patrol strength is good for communities and good for officers too – the new bulletproof vests, the training, the technology that we’ve given to officers. This is about our commitment to keeping our officers safe as they keep communities safe.

So, those things, to me, are the heart of the matter. If we can’t be honest about what people are feeling on both sides, we’re not going to get anywhere.

So, what I said two years ago was just literally what we experienced in my family, and I know that millions of other families have experienced. And it should be something people hear on both sides openly and respect because it’s a painful reality in everyday life in this country.

Lehrer: And before the Dallas shootings, you had already gotten push-back yesterday from the police sergeant union head, Ed Mullins, who said, “He’s lost his mind again. It’s inappropriate again for the Mayor to do what he’s doing.” I hate to think we’re going to get into that kind of back-and-forth as the dominant news story in the tabloids or something over the next days. But do you want to react to Ed Mullins?

Mayor: Well, I don’t think – I don’t think anyone should participate in that back-and-forth and allow it to happen again because I think what happened – look at the horrible, horrible, painful events this week and the juxtaposition. What happened earlier in the week struck a cord in Minnesota and Louisiana – struck a cord in people across all boundaries. I’m sure many, many police officers watched those videos with deep pain, and thought that what happened was wrong. And obviously parents and families. I mean, it affected the whole country.

And then what happened in Dallas is, for all of us – it’s a national tragedy, and our hearts have to go out. My heart goes out to the families who lost those officers. But it’s also an attack – as I said – it’s an attack on all of us. It’s an attack on our society.

And so, we should be able to – you said – I think your question was the right one. Can we have both conversations at the same time? We have to. We have no choice but to.

So, I’m not going to get lost in any individual’s critique. I think we as a city and a society have to do better. And you know, ignoring things or just turning away from each other is not going to solve the problem. It’s not going to save any lives.

Lehrer: Let’s take a phone call in our Ask The Mayor segment with Mayor de Blasio. Mike in Brooklyn, you’re on WNYC with the Mayor. Hello.

Question: Good morning to all of you. Good morning Mr. Mayor. How are you?

Mayor: Good, Mike.

Question: As the parent of two sons and two daughters – black sons in the city of New York – as a black man, a working man, a property owner in this city of New York – I’ve been living in this city for almost 40 years. I am sorry for the loss of life, regardless of who ever it is – police officers or black people. I think that people have to step back because hate is very destructive. What the Governor of Minnesota and the Governor of Louisiana – the way they handled those situations – I would like to see the Mayor of New York and the Governor of New York deal with this situation the same way. One really troubling thing from the position of a black person, just walking the shoes of a black person in this city and this country every day – it is rather hard because you are judged first and foremost not by your character but by the color of your skin. People have to deal with this situation of race. All of these dynamics that are going on – it all comes down to race. And we need to have a discussion openly – not about pointing fingers, about what happened in the past, and making people feel guilty – but recognize – let’s look beyond each other’s color and deal with people for what they are. So when a police officer approaches me he will treat me the same way he treats the Mayor or Governor of New York, you know?

Mayor: I appreciate it Mike. Look Mike, you are describing such a fundamental reality. And I think there’s still a lack of recognition in our society of what you just said – that for so many people they know that even in 2016, they will instantly be judged by the color of their skin. And so we love repeating Dr. King’s speech from the March on Washington, but the same reality exists. There’s a reality of structural racism in our society we haven’t overcome. I think at the same time there is a dialogue that started in the last two years that’s better than what was there before because it’s being talked about much more openly, and there’s real efforts to bridge the gaps. I think – we have a long way to go in New York City, but I do think there’s been extraordinary efforts by our police. And I give Commissioner Bratton a lot of credit – to change the nature of the relationship between police and community, with a neighborhood policing approach and a real emphasis on police officers getting to know community members, and again, training to deescalate any confrontations that might occur. There’s a change, and it will take time but it is beginning here. I think it’s beginning in other places, but it really has been fostered in large measure by a much more open dialogue like you describe. And then there’s these moments that have to – we have to cling to. And this horrific moment in Dallas where our officers were under attack – a number of them were protecting protestors. The first impulse they had was to shield protestors from bullets that were raining down on them.

Lehrer: And not only that – our correspondent for NPR in Dallas, Wade Goodwyn, was reporting that this was a particularly peaceful protest in Dallas. The police were also being particularly congenial. Some of the police – some of the protestors were even takings selfies with police officers to represent unity near the end of that protest that had gone off so well – and that the snipers had absolutely nothing to do with the mass of the protest in general. It wasn’t some kind of outpouring of anger over increasingly tense interactions between the police and the crowd. They were completely – talk about a few bad apples versus a system – this was a few bad apples versus a system.

Mayor: That’s right, Brian. And I think this is indicative of what people want. Our officers want protest to be peaceful and they know that they’re there, under the Constitution, to protect the right to protest. And I give officers so much credit for the restraint and the way they handle protests. And the vast, vast majorities of protestors over these last years want to make their point, do not want to be disrespectful of the police, want to follow the rules. And then there are bad apples or individuals who want confrontation, who want destruction, who want hatred, who say horrific things to police, and inappropriate things, and try and get the entire society to believe that’s everyone, and that only – we can only have conflict, we can only have hatred. And it’s a very, very cynical action. This is – we’re just talking about words – what happened in Dallas was so much worse. But it is an effort by a few to poison the well for everyone. But look at the heroism of those officers shielding the protestors who are under fire too. That should be the metaphor – that should be the example to us of where we need to go. And that gives me – even in this tragedy – it gives me some hope that there is a way forward.

Lehrer: Raph, in the Bronx you’re on WNYC with Mayor de Blasio. Hello, Raph.

Question: Hey, thanks for taking my call. I first want to send my condolences out to all of the people who lost family over the past few days. My question is about the absolute power that a police officer on the street has. I think that there needs to be better training because I mean ultimately a police officer on the street is the judge and jury, and sometimes the executioner. And a lot of times in interactions with police officers, it’s difficult to get through to the person that’s there. And I want to know what’s done in their training to prevent the power going to their heads and making them unreasonable sometimes.

Mayor: Raph, I appreciate the question. And I think the bottom line is this – people who put on a uniform – it’s a huge life choice to go out there and to serve others and know that you could be putting your life on the line literally any given moment, so that is a huge commitment. What we have tried to do a lot better in the city in the last few years is train our officers to think about the way they approach their work in a way that helps them be the best they can be, and that’s what they want. I’ve found over and over again, in all the interactions I’ve had with the Police Department – our officers want to be the best they can be, they want to be the most effective, they absolutely recognize that they have that force at their disposal. But – under Commissioner Bratton’s leadership – the training idea has been to show officers the many tools they have, the many options they have; to focus on de-escalation when there’s a conflict; and to focus on making sure there’s enough officers around for backup whenever humanly possible, which helps to contain a situation. There’s a whole series of things that are being taught for all our new officers – we just had a graduating class in the last week. They’re being taught a very different approach – an approach that’s much more connected to communities, with an emphasis on building relationships with communities. And that’s part of what we need too – humanizing the situation – all around – community members seeing officers as part of their communities; fellow human beings who are protecting them; police officers understanding the members of their community. And we’ve gone at implicit bias, and this is another part of the national conversation we have to have. We all have implicit bias – every single one of us. And the previous caller, Mike, explained very painfully a bias that runs through our society to this day. Well we can teach officers how to identify that – how to reduce the impact of that. That’s what we’re doing now for all new officers, but also we went, with Commissioner Bratton’s leadership – the whole department went through a retraining. And I do think that’s one of the ways forward and I think – another thing that’s really important to recognize about New York City – over the years, our officers use deadly force very rarely. We have – now we’re going to have 36,000 officers. They have millions and millions of interactions with people in the course of a year. And thank God deadly force is used very rarely. And there’s more and more restraint, and I give our officers a lot of credit for that. You look at the numbers – it’s been a steady, steady reduction. And we think the training is going to help reduce it further.

Lehrer: And by the way, adding to the tragedy in Dallas is the good reputation that that particular police department was earning for some of its work. I’m just going to read from a January 2015 Washington Post column so people can hear this said out loud. This is a column called The Watch written by Radley Balko. And it says: “Here at The Watch, we’ve praised Dallas Police Chief David Brown and his staff for the department’s community-oriented approach to policing, openness and transparency about excessive force, its rejection of law enforcement as a revenue generator, and its First Amendment-friendly approach to protest. Now, there’s some evidence of a payoff. Dallas’ 2014 murder rate was its lowest since 1930 — the year Bonnie and Clyde met at a West Dallas house party.” So that from the Washington Post – January of last year. Go ahead, Mr. Mayor.

Mayor: Quick comment on that – I really appreciate you sharing that. Mayor Rawlings, who I saw just a couple of weeks ago, is really a fantastic leader who has helped to shape a different direction. And I give and the men and the women at the Dallas Police Department a lot of credit for exactly what you just said – that there has been steady progress and very mindful progress. But I want to get back to your point about separating the bad apples from the vast majority of people who are just exercising their American right to make their views known. Is it coincidental that there is an attack in a city where such progress is being made between police and community? We don’t know yet. We need a full investigation but I would suggest to you that there is a small number of people who want to poison the well and, in fact, want to disrupt progress and the relationship between police and community. And you certainly see that in verbal form at some of the protests where you have 10,000 people who are respectful of police and 10 or 20 who say vile, horrible things in hopes that their negative comments will be portrayed as the majority. I think it’s very cynical and I think, in fact, there are some people who want to see progress fail. And it’s tragic that this happened to these officers in Dallas that they were murdered in cold blood in this way.

But not only was it an attack on all of us. It’s also an attack on progress because Dallas was getting it right.

Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Mayor Bill de Blasio on our weekly Ask the Mayor segment that we generally do Friday mornings at 10 o’ clock here on the station. And obviously, considering the events of this week we are talking about policing, guns, race, violence and justice and with you as well at 2-1-2- 4-3-3-W-N-Y-C or you can always tweet a question or a comment for Mayor de Blasio using the hashtag #AsktheMayor. And, Robbie in Manhattan, you are on WNYC with Mayor de Blasio. Hello.

Question: Thank you very much. The heart of this problem and tragedies this week – both these innocent black men who were killed and the police officers who were killed – traces to the Second Amendment, which calls for a well-regulated militia. We have that. We have the U.S. Army, the National Reserve, the state troopers, the sheriffs, the city police, police officers, millions around the country but we already know that there are more guns in the hands of private citizens than there are in the hands of all the above added up. If that Second Amendment were looked at again, there needs to be a march on Washington led by, I would hope Mike Bloomberg, he has the money for it. There has to be a march on Washington when the Supreme Court is in session, when Congress is in session, when some bills are up. They’ve got to take a good serious look at the Second Amendment and get rid of guns.

Lehrer: Robbie, I am going to leave it there.

Mayor: Just quickly, Robbie is entirely right and I think something is changing in this country. I think what happened – is all these issues are interconnected. And what happened with the sit-in at the House of Representatives and the growing anger about the availability of guns, even to people on the terror watch list, I think something is starting to change. It will take this election and much more for there to be more foundational change but there is no question our police officers are being endangered by illegal weapons every single hour of the day and somehow, when we as a matter of national consciousness believe that – that the dangers to everyday citizens, the dangers to police are more important than the power of the NRA, something will give. I think at this point it’s inevitable there’s going to be some change because we’ve reached that breaking point.

Lehrer: And I think not just as a danger to the police but I think the two men killed in Baton Rouge and in Minnesota were carrying legal firearms. I’m pretty sure the one in Minnesota said he was to the officer before he was shot and there was reporting about the Baton Rouge victim carrying a gun for what he believed to be self-defense in general in the neighborhood as he was out selling CDs which I gather is what he did. So in that respect too – if there is an implicit bias on the part of too many police officers toward seeing black men as riskier than they are, as more of a threat than they are – the proliferation of guns in the hands of those civilians also contributes to the risk.

Do you think I am off base tying that into it?

Mayor: No I think you’re right because just the very notion of more guns in the situation can only lead to more violence. I think it’s even more elemental than the way you’re constructing it. If guns are available too many people will use them the wrong way, but the very presence of guns is a cause for escalation of violence. And that’s why so much of what’s wrong with the open carry laws and everything else, which how on Earth is the notion of people showing visibly their gun going to offer more peace? It only invites more violence and more misunderstanding. And the incredibly painful video from Louisiana, the pivotal moment is when someone yells out gun. And that is a trigger.

I cannot imagine for a moment if you’re a trained law enforcement officer and someone yells out gun that doesn’t change your behavior. I think you’re trained to think that way. That – that’s a game changer and so long as there is such ready access to guns its yet another reason why painful and [inaudible] that no one expected – no one went into it expecting the outcome. But the very presence of guns escalates that possibility.    

Lehrer: You said yesterday that the City is moving aggressively to implement body cameras for police officers to wear. But just last week, Commissioner Bratton said, “We’ve been purposely moving very slowly on this issue. We want to make sure that before we move to 1,000 cameras or five or ten thousand cameras, that we have public understanding, media understanding, political understanding in place.” He used those terms. Are you and the Commissioner on the same page on this?

Mayor: Yes. Absolutely. And what I’m trying to say is – when I say aggressively, I mean we are convinced that we will find the right way to make it work in the biggest city in America. And we’ve already got the first iteration of 1,000 that we’re doing now, going up to 5,000 going forward, and then beyond. So, there’s a clear plan. But what we’re also – and I’ve said it and the Commissioner’s said it, and we have a federal monitor involved – we must get the confidentiality issues right and the legal issues. We must get the technology and logistic issues right. And, here, they’re more complicated than anywhere.

So, I used the word to say we are committed [inaudible] long haul to getting this right. And just the numbers we already are putting in play mean more officers with body cameras on than most cities have officers to begin with. So, it’s a very purposeful effort.

Lehrer: And let’s see if we can get one more call in here before we run out of time with the Mayor. Jose in Rosedale you’re on WNYC. Hello, Jose.

Question: Good morning, gentlemen.

Mayor: Hey, Jose.

Lehrer: Hi, Jose.

Question: You know, Mr. Mayor, I’d like to send my condolences out to all – all the victims of these deaths over the past week or so. And my – you know, I voted for you. And when you took that stand, and you made those comments about having the dangers of a son of a mixed race, and the fear you have for your son when he goes out into the streets. And when I saw how the policemen went after you with a vengeance – and you tend to back down somewhat, which made me wonder who really was in charge of the police. Who runs the Police Department? And so, to that, I would like to ask you, if the lives of the police officers are more important than the people whose lives they are sworn to protect – shouldn’t the police be held to a higher standard than the people they are paid to protect?

And in addition to that, I think, Mr. Mayor, in addition to the civilian population having cell phones to take pictures of those heinous acts out there, I think we should create a body camera for the people [inaudible] concentrate on police body cameras because they can turn it off and do whatever they want with it. What they should have is a camera that is developed for the civilians to wear whenever they go on the street –

Lehrer: Jose, I’m going to leave it there because we’re going to run out of time in a minute with the Mayor. But Mr. Mayor, go ahead.

Mayor: Well, Jose, I think you should go back and look at the record, first of all. I’ve been very, very consistent. What I said about my son, what I said about the realities facing young men of color, I haven’t changed that one bit. The people run the government. The Police Department’s policies are determined by civilians elected by the people. It’s as simple as that. And if you haven’t seen the fundamental changes – the reduction of stop-and-frisk, the end of arrests of low-level marijuana possession, the retraining of the entire police force, the beginning of body cameras – if you haven’t recognized the impact of all of that then I would ask you to look more carefully.

I agree with you that every public servant – me and our police officers, we’re held to a high standard, and we have to live up to that standard which is why the training and the proper preparation of our police is so important. But I believe, fundamentally, that it’s happening more and more in the city. I think it’s going to take a lot more work. We’re trying to overcome – as I said – decades and centuries of divisions and biases. But I think it is happening more and more in this city, and we’re not turning back.

Lehrer: And last thing before you go – have you spoken to your own kids again about any of this week’s events?

Mayor: I have spoken to my daughter who was horrified by the attacks on the police officers, and obviously horrified by the attacks on the civilians earlier in the week. And I think, like so many young people, she’s just in a state of shock about our country and what’s happening. And I think we as adults have to – and this was part of the discussion yesterday – we have to say to young people that we are going to take charge of the situation, have the dialogue we have to have, make the changes we have to make, and show everyone that our officers and civilians alike can be both safe and in a regular, positive, productive dialogue. That’s our obligation to show our young people that we can actually make that work.

Lehrer: Mr. Mayor, thanks a lot – sorry under these circumstances. And I’ll talk to you next week.

Mayor: Thank you, Brian.