Transcript: Mayor de Blasio Appears Live on the Brian Lehrer Show

October 11, 2019

Brian Lehrer: It’s the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. And we begin as we usually do on Fridays with our weekly Ask the Mayor segment – my questions and yours for Mayor Bill de Blasio. Our phones are open at 2-1-2-4-3-3-WNYC, 4-3-3-9-6-9-2, or you can tweet a question, just use the hashtag #AskTheMayor. Good morning, Mr. Mayor. Welcome back to WNYC.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Thank you Brian, how are you doing today?

Lehrer: I’m doing great, thanks. Well, I see you and City Council Speaker Corey Johnson announced an agreement on actual legislation to close the Rikers Island jail complex. What’s new here? Because I thought that was already pretty much agreed to.

Mayor: Yeah, I think – look, there’s been concern, and I never blame anyone who is worried about what might happen in the future under different administrations. There’s been concern about – will the actions we’re taking in the coming days to create borough-based jails and entirely new, modern facilities that are focused on redeeming people rather than just punishing them was, is that action definitively going to mean the closure of Rikers as a correctional facility and I believe everything we’ve been doing, for years now, guarantees that. But some wanted to see a further, you know, legal stipulation if you will to make clear to future administrations that they have to get off Rikers, it’s no longer going to be a correctional facility, and I agree with that. That’s why we’re doing all this work. So we found a way to put that into action.

Lehrer: Is there anything new here about getting past all the objections to size and location around the four borough jails that are supposed to replace Rikers?

Mayor: I think the only – I’d say two things, the new thing in terms of law is taking what we have all been working towards intensely for years now and just making it abundantly clear that future administrations would be bound by this agreement, which I think again is very, very good. I think the – in terms of the negotiation, it’s a statement to those who, you know, believe we are going in the right direction but wanted some further guarantees and it’s a perfectly legitimate concern. It’s just a way to show people in the Council and beyond that everyone involved has the same intent and we mean for it to stick, so I think it’s just helped the discussion along, to have that additional guarantee.

Lehrer: If future administrations, as you put it, are going to have what I’ll call the politically hard parts, does this bill have any meaning?

Mayor: Well, explain what you mean by your question, I’m not sure what you mean by the political hard parts?

Lehrer: Well, getting the four borough jails firmly approved and constructed—

Mayor: No, this is the approval. I want to make sure you’re aware and all your listeners are aware. Next week is the vote to approve the four borough-based jails, once and for all, and I really want to emphasize to your listeners, Brian, that whence this is done in the next few years, I mean these will be our jail facilities for literally generations. I mean Rikers has been there for 85 years. So, this is, to me, you know this takes through essentially the rest of the century if you think about it, and it means we no longer have Rikers Island, we no longer have a jail system that was built for anything but redemption, and what we’re doing right now – I mean right now in our corrections system we are providing all inmates five days a week of education training to help them change their lives, never come back into the correction system, we’re giving folks who come out of Rikers transitional jobs to help them get back on their feet. It’s an entirely different approach to correction – we are ending the era of mass incarceration right here in New York City. We’re leading the nation. In fact, we have half as many people who have gone through the doors of our corrections system last year than five years ago. So the whole idea is to change the way we do things once and for all but the definitive vote is next week.

Lehrer: Last thing on this then. If the definitive vote is next week and that approves the four borough jails, why is it going to take until 2026, under this bill, to not have anybody go to Rikers anymore? Does it really take seven years to build those facilities?

Mayor: I think the – because it is a legally binding rule, the idea was to put in place in a way where even if there were, you know whatever, construction delays or financial issues or anything that affected the timing, there was enough time to accommodate the construction. I think based on everything I’m seeing, we’re going to be able to beat that deadline for sure and I think this project is going to move very well. We’ve got a lot of good people focused on moving it quickly. But the idea in that legislation was just to put a time limit that no one questioned would be met and then once that time limit is met, everything has to be closed.

Lehrer: Let’s take a phone call. Julianna in Bushwick you’re on WNYC with the Mayor, hello Julianna. Julianna, or is it Julianna?

Question: Hello?

Lehrer: Hi, is this Julianna in Bushwick?

Question: Hi, Julianna yes. So, I’m a visual artist in my late 20s. I’ve been living in Bushwick, Brooklyn for 11 years in the same loft that has no certificate of occupancy for 10 years, and I’ve been in a protracted battle with my landlord. I have mold in my apartment, I came down with adult onset asthma, I have had to use special creams and medications for a full body rash and severe breathing problems for this entire time. And this year, in fact, my cat actually came down with identical symptoms, being treated with identical medications. My building has many violations on all the City websites, and I’ve contacted the Loft Board and 3-1-1 for help. I was met with kind of blank stares through the phone and told I would receive a phone call at some point in the future which I never did, so I’m looking for the Mayor’s help in figuring out how to get mold testing for my apartment. I also wanted to mention that I’ve been commissioned by the City of New York, twice, during the last – the tenure of the Mayor to create public works and I feel like my contribution to the city is very valuable, but I’m living in very difficult conditions. It’s super hard to just survive as an artist here. I’m also a first-generation immigrant and queer and there’s just like a lot of issues facing me and—

Lehrer: Julianna, can I ask is it that you want the City to intervene because your landlord – it sounds horrible – and about as serious as a mold problem could be if you’re describing everything accurately, but is it that you want the City to take action because you have an unresponsive landlord? Julianna?

Question: I’m sorry your screener cut me off. Hello?

Lehrer: Sorry, sorry, I was asking if the issue for the City is that you have an responsive landlord and you want them to intervene?

Question: Correct, yes. My landlord has also been trying to evict me on false grounds during this period. I’ve tried to bring many complaints about the mold and so for the last couple of years, almost two years I’ve been paying out of pocket for a lawyer since I basically didn’t know what to do with all of my freelance income just paying off week by week to defend myself and not able to really address the issue. I’ve been told I can get a private mold tester, but I can’t afford it. It’s like $1,000 and there’s many more steps to the process to bring it into a legal context –

Lehrer: So, at least on that, Mr. Mayor, I imagine there would be some City testing. How can you help Julianna?

Mayor: Yeah. Julianna, look, I’m very, very sorry you’re going through this. You raised several different points here and we want to work with you to fix all of them. So, first of all, Julianna, please give your information to WNYC and we’ll have someone follow up with you today. There’s a couple things I heard, Brian. First of all, if the landlord is not addressing the issues in the apartment, right there we have potential actions we can take against the landlord. If the landlord is trying to evict Julianna illegally we can get her legal support as well. On the mold issue, we want to make sure that apartment is safe so we want to get our Department of Health involved to address the mold problem – don’t want anyone dealing with that in their home.

So, there’s a bunch of different pieces here and we can help, I think, on all of them. The other point I’d make – Julianna made the point of, you know, our artists are really struggling, obviously, with the cost of living here and we not only believe in them, artists, as part of our life in this city, our culture, our democracy, but they are part [inaudible] of everything we love about New York City. So, we’re trying to help artists with some – we’re don’t have endless amounts – but at least some affordable artist housing, some affordable artist space for their work. That’s something we and the City Council tried to focus on. We got more to do for sure but there is some available, so I want to make sure for Julianna or anyone else who has an interest in that, that they know that those are some City initiatives they can take advantage of.

Lehrer: So, Julianna, hang on, we’re going to take your contact information and hopefully the City can get you some help. Mr. Mayor, the city now has had, as you know, its first vaping death – a 17-year-old boy from the Bronx, the youngest victim in the whole country from what I read, out of the 23 recent deaths that have been described as vaping related. Do you have a policy response?

Mayor: We – first of all, it’s horrible and this is an example of something that – and this is a bigger things that drives me crazy, when a product is allowed on the market before it is clear if it’s safe or not. And I’m a believer that government at all levels needs to step in and ensure that no product is out there affecting people’s lives and potentially being fatal to a 17-year-old – it’s horrible – without being properly regulated or approved. So, this has just been backwards. We are trying to find a way as a City, either legislatively or in a regulatory way, to immediately intervene in this market place and get particularly the products aimed at kids off the shelves. It’s been tough, I got to be honest with you.

The laws unfortunately are favoring the companies in many ways. And my understanding is New York State tried to take aggressive action and ran into problems in court with that. But we’re looking for everything we can including we filed a lawsuit against 22 online sellers of vaping products targeting young people. And so we hope that the lawsuit will have an impact. But this one is – it’s kind of a new area and unfortunately that is allowing some of these companies to get away with something horrible. We are trying to find a way to break through.

Lehrer: Have you considered how extreme public policy should be with respect to vaping products – eventually close all the vape shops or does this relate to the regulation of non-THC products like Juul as well as to somehow black market THC oils which apparently are the source for just about everybody who has been affected?

Mayor: Yeah, I can’t pretend to tell you I understand the chemical nuances here but I can tell you that I believe our first responsibility is public safety and public health and we are very, very aggressive in this administration. If we think we have a legal way to go after any of the folks who are endangering our young people, we’re going to do it. Now, again, the laws give us some opportunities and then take away other opportunities. So we have to be smart about how we address it. But if there’s a way to address it at the company level that’s part of why we’re doing this lawsuit. If there’s a way to do with regulation or law, we want to do that. I think looking at the shops themselves is a very good idea. We need a legal hook that would allow us to do that. But that’s something I’m going to explore with my team right away because we want to be aggressive here.

Lehrer: Could this be an additional argument for legalizing recreational marijuana? Because none of these deaths I believe have been linked to legal THC for vaping. I read a Forbes op-ed pro-legalization article that indicated that a test of THC oils in California found almost all the black market samples to be contaminated with this Vitamin-E derivative believed to be a cause. And none of the legal ones in that legal state were contaminated.

Mayor: Look, I would just say, the argument for legalization is very, very clear and I believe in it. This city back in December under my administration put out a plan that we thought the State of New York could adapt wholesale for the right way to legalize marijuana with real health and safety protections, with economic empowerment of communities that have been negatively affected by the wrong marijuana laws. So, I think the jury has come back and it’s time to legalize with the right rules in place. This may be an additional argument for it but I think there’s many, many reasons why we need to move to legalize.

Lehrer: Well even though our next caller is calling from Manhattan, maybe we will hear A Bronx Tale from him because it looks like Chazz Palminteri. Chazz is that you?

Question: Oh hi. Hi this Chazz Palminteri, hello Mr. Mayor.

Mayor: Hey Chazz.

Question: Yeah, hi. I’m just calling here, I know Columbus Day is on Monday and I’m a very proud Italian-American and I just would like to say that your wife, the First Lady, I thought she was really right in what she said about how women have been underappreciated and that there’s only five percent of the statues in New York that are women. So I totally agree with her and when she had the contest about asking New Yorkers who would they like, as far as women, from – what we would have a statue. So I was very excited about that and I know I myself – we all voted Mother Cabrini.

Now for people who don’t know Mother Cabrini is the patron saint of immigrants and how you always talk about that, you know, immigration is so important to us and New York, we are a sanctuary city and we accept immigrants. Now here’s a woman who started 67 charities, Mr. Mayor, 67. Here’s the woman who is the patron saint of immigrants who has done so much for New York and the world. Not just New York – and the world – the United States helped orphanages all over the world.

So she comes in first by double the votes and then we hear, for whatever reason – now I saw the other names that were being brought up and very accomplished women, and they deserve a statue, absolutely. I agree, Shirley Chisholm, all those people, no question. Billie Holiday, a great artist. But Mr. Mayor, how could we just disregard Mother Cabrini and say, okay, she’s out and these other seven are in. I mean I’m sorry –

Lehrer: Chazz, let me get you an answer in, I appreciate you calling in.

Mayor: Well – and I want you to keep Chazz on the line please, Brian, because I think there is something we have to set the record straight on. I’m going to ask Chazz a question too, in a moment. But, let me first state the facts and I appreciate where Chazz began, I appreciate his work as an actor. I know he loves this city. I know he’s a proud Italian-American. I’m a very proud Italian-American and I appreciate that Chazz began in the right place which is the whole idea of this initiative was to recognize there are very, very few statues of women even though they are the majority in this city and they have played an overwhelming role in the history of the city, for generations their contributions were not acknowledged in any way. And what my wife, Chirlane, is trying to do and other leaders of the administration is create an ongoing process for honoring women.

It started with some very, you know, obvious, huge historical figures, Susan B. Anthony, Sojourner Truth, extended out to women who were somewhat less well known but came from each of the five boroughs, some well-known like Shirley Chisholm for sure. That is a beginning and so my problem – respectfully – with the people who’ve raised this concern is it was first of all it wasn’t a vote. It was a request for nominations. There were hundreds of women nominated to my understanding. It was not an online vote and whoever got the most votes win, there weren’t even that many votes honestly. It was the beginning of –

Question: [Inaudible] those votes – sir –

Mayor: Chazz, let me finish. Let me finish.

Question: Okay, go ahead.

Mayor: It was the beginning of a process. Now Mother Cabrini, I want to be the first to say as an Italian-American, my grandfather and my grandmother came here from Southern Italy. Mother Cabrini is an outstanding figure and absolutely worthy of being honored and another round of the statue process is about to begin and her name is clearly at the top of the list because she is an outstanding figure in New York history and obviously it would mean a lot to a lot of people.

So what I object to is two things. One, no one bothered to ask the question, what’s going to happen next, you know, the people who were honored in the first round, it was a beginning, not an end. And then second, Chazz, I want to set something straight with you, personally, and I want to make sure you and I are not – that there’s not a conflict between us because of misreporting by the New York Post and I often said that the New York Post doesn’t traffic in fact, it tries often times to divide us and to misrepresent –

Question: Exactly – yeah – [inaudible].

Mayor: So I’m not going to believe the New York Post, you’re live on the radio, the New York Post says you called my wife, who is a tremendous public servant who loves people of all backgrounds, who named her children Chiara and Dante and honors their Italian heritage, that you called her a racist. I can’t believe you would have done that but I’m sure you will tell me the honest truth.

Question: I will tell you the honest truth. I was asked a question – well, do you think that is racism, and I did say the word yes. I did not call her a racist. I’ve never said those words. But they asked me, do you think that is racism and I said, well, it looks that way. If anything, Mr. Mayor, it’s an implicit bias at the least. I mean, at the least, Sir –

Mayor: Chazz, the problem with saying something like that, with all due respect – and I said the things [inaudible] about you and I know you’re a good person but you just don’t just call someone a racist because they started to try and address a historic wrong. The effort she was a part of created statues for white people, black people, Latino people, straight people, gay people, all five boroughs. That’s not racist so get it together. Let’s be real here. You have someone you think should be honored who is a tremendous figure. Mother Cabrini is going to be talked about in this next round. There’s a great argument for her. I honor what she did for this city. But you don’t call someone a racist who isn’t a racist. It just isn’t factually right and it’s inappropriate and it’s unfair.

Question: I did not call her a racist. I [inaudible] – I said, what they asked me – and I’m being honest with you – is that racism and I said, it looks like it [inaudible] –

Mayor: Except it isn't – it isn’t. And I would urge people not to use that term where it doesn’t exist. When someone has stood up for all people – what my wife has done is respect people of all races throughout her life in all of her work, in her mental health work. Everything she has done is about everyone. There’s not an ounce of racism there –

Question: [Inaudible] understand what you’re –

Lehrer: Chazz, do you want to retract that judgement that it was racism?

Question: No, I understand that. All I – I would just like – if it wasn't that, I would just the answer of how a woman who could have done so much be considered for the next round when she should be on the first round –

Mayor: Chazz, that’s –

Question: [Inaudible] understand that [inaudible] –

Mayor: Chazz that has nothing to do with race for God sakes. You – look, there was a first round – we’re talking about all of the history of New York City, all of the women who contributed, everything they ever did, and it was a first round of statues. No one said it was the end – and you know what would have been good to do – I would have welcomed a call from you – pick up the God forsaken phone and say, hey, a lot of us think this is a great idea, can we make this happen? And I would say, that’s a great idea. Let’s get to work on it.

When people go running to the media and start calling racism and just create a conflict for conflict’s sake – I’m a proud Italian American, there’s nothing in the heritage I got from my family that suggested that’s how you treat people. So, I would urge you to be a little more respectful –

Question: [Inaudible]

Mayor: – And there’s going to be another process and Mother Cabrini, undoubtedly, is going to be way up that list to be considered, and then judge that next process, which will happen in a manner of months –

Question: [Inaudible]

Mayor: – judge it by its results.

Question: I will, Mr. Mayor. But just to be sure, if it was the other way around, okay, if it was the other way around, you don’t think the African American community would have jumped up and said something if you had just totally disregarded [inaudible] –

Mayor: Okay, so, Chazz, Chazz. Is Susan B. Anthony not a white person? I don’t even get your reasoning here about race. It makes no sense.

Question: Susan B. Anthony lit a tower every [inaudible] for 30 years, and a great thing. I know about Susan B. Anthony. She lit the tower for 30 years which is a wonderful thing but she doesn’t compare to the [inaudible] of Mother Cabrini.

Lehrer: Chazz, I’m going to – I have to go onto some other calls. I’m sure you understand. But do you – I’m going to give you one chance to say, after this exchange that you’ve just had with the Mayor, do you want to retract the accusation of racism in the selection process or standby it?

Question: I would like you to tell your wife I apologize for saying – using the word racism. Again, I did not call her a racist but they asked me, does this sound like racism to you and I did say yes. As a man, I would not lie to you. Absolutely [inaudible] –

Lehrer: But you’re apologizing for that now?

Question: [Inaudible] passion the way you say to me, and your wife, I do apologize for that. All I’m saying is, Mr. Mayor, out of all the proud Italians in New York and all over the world – and you are one of them – here is a woman who has done more work, so much for – she’s the patron saints of immigrants – see what you can do [inaudible] –

Mayor: We have – this is a good dialogue, Chazz. Thank you for the apology and I’ll relay it to Chirlane and I will guarantee you another round of statues is coming and real soon. Mother Cabrini is right at the top of the list for consideration. I will make a strong case for Mother Cabrini because I agree when we get past the characterizations and we get to the facts and the history, she is a stunning figure in history, an amazing figure in history, and so, let’s move forward together with mutual respect.

Lehrer: Alright, Chazz, thank you so much for calling in. And there’s a conversation I never anticipated having on the show today but we just had it. Theo –

Mayor: The beauty of live radio, Brian.

Lehrer: That’s right and it looks like you even got to some common ground – at least a little bit with that apology. Theo in Brooklyn you’re on WNYC with the Mayor – hi, Theo.  

Question: Hi, how’s it going, Mr. Mayor, and Mr. Lehrer? Pleasure to talk to you both. So, basically the story is across the street from my mother they’re renovating these three townhouses, and it’s creating like a ton of dust and has given her asthma problems. She’s been hospitalized twice and is on all these inhalers and stuff. She’s called 3-1-1, she’s talked to lawyers, and nobody seems to think there’s anything she can do about it. So I’m just wondering is there really no recourse for this or what’s to be done?

Mayor: So, Theo, thank you for the call and please give your information to WNYC. I believe there is recourse. You know, there are contractors and developers who are really shoddy and really disrespectful of their neighbors and disrespectful to public health and we have a lot of tools to address that. So I am going to alert the Health Department and the Buildings Department and it comes down to this – the people doing the work have the responsibility to ensure they’re not doing anything that endangers the health and well-being of the neighbors around them. And if they are doing something inappropriate it could lead to everything from the site being shutdown to fines to even in some cases with more serious actions, there’s even criminal charges potentially in some cases. So we’re going to get all over this today, because that’s – it’s not fair to anyone. I have asthma myself, as does my wife Chirlane. We know plenty about the impact it has, and it’s all about what’s in the air around you. So, I hear you loud and clear and we will follow up on this today. Please give your information to WNYC.

Lehrer: Mr. Mayor, I want to ask about one of the housing rezoning proposals that’s being applied for. Our website Gothamist reported on the fabled Lenox Terrance Complex in Harlem where as you may know a developer wants to build an additional 1,600 apartments, 1,200 of them at market rents. Reportedly community fears include being gentrified out – you know, people who can’t afford to live there or near there now, and Lenox Terrace also not being the “black oasis” as its history has been called. I gather that you haven’t taken a position publically yet on this application. Do you have one?

Mayor: It’s something that’s just come to my attention in the last few days, Brian. This is a private company that’s put forward this request. So it’s not coming from the City of New York. We’re going to judge according to our values, which is protecting the community, protecting and enhancing, adding affordable housing wherever possible. So this is just the beginning of the process. I think the Harlem community has been through a lot when it comes to gentrification; there’s been a lot of displacement. We’ve been trying very hard to address that by subsidizing a lot of folks to stay in their apartments and preserving that affordable housing in place, creating some new affordable apartments in Upper Manhattan as well. So we’re going to look at this and see what makes sense to do here. This is a far from concluded. And the bottom line here is, my first concern is the people who live there already, and protecting affordability. And we have to see whether this plan achieves that or not.

Lehrer: Does it indicate larger issues with the rezonings that the City is initiating that if let’s say 75 percent of new units somewhere are market rate, even though it creates some new affordable housing with that 25 percent, the net effect is still gentrification in a neighborhood?

Mayor: I think there is a couple of different things here to think about. It’s an excellent question. One, a certain amount of market activity is happening no matter what. This is you know, you had the caller from Bushwick before. I always use the example of Bushwick. There was no government intervention in Bushwick and there was massive gentrification, massive displacement, same with Bed-Stuy and other communities. So the question is if you can almost make a model, if you can almost project, what’s going to happen anyway because of changing realities in the market and you know, changing rent levels that are legal, that landlords have a right to ask. Where is all that going anyway? And then we have to decide whether government intervention improves the situation or not. My view is there have been some where absolutely we were able to go in, guarantee a huge number of new, affordable units and we were convinced the market dynamics were already well underway, and that the plan we put forward was not going to exacerbate – it was already – whatever the problem or challenge was, it was already happening. This one’s interesting. Again, this is not something we’ve put forward. This is a private company saying they have a plan and they’re trying to argue that it could fit what the community needs. That we’re going to hold them to a high bar.

Lehrer: Okay.

Mayor: But just for your point, I really believe that in the relativity few, we actually haven’t done that many large rezonings, but when we’ve done them it’s with that sort of math in mind. Is it value add for folks who already live there and for maximizing affordable housing?

Lehrer: We’ve got two minutes left. I want to get one more in for you. The news organization The City has a story today about your new online referral service for veterans struggling to connect as the headline goes. And it says that in the first 11 months since the VetConnectNYC site went live, only about 500 veterans or their family members requested services through it, out of more than 200,000 veterans who live in the five boroughs. So we can use this even just as promotion to veterans who might be listening or their families that here’s something you can use but also why is this not connecting more effectively?

Mayor: We want it to, Brian. So, just a quick answer – you know, our Department of Veterans’ Services, we created it because so many veterans had needs that were not being fulfilled elsewhere. Any veteran who is listening right now who has a need in terms of health care, physical or mental health care, affordable housing, employment, you can call 3-1-1, you can go online at NYC.gov and there’s a host of ways our Department of Veterans’ Services can help you. That Vets Connect approach, it’s a new one. We think it’s going to add the capacity to make it possible for a lot more vets to get what they need. We have a new Veterans’ Services Commissioner we just announced, Colonel James Hendon who is decorated veteran of the Iraq and Afghan theatres and he is bringing a lot of new vigor to the team and the whole idea is to reach a lot more people. Historically, a lot of veterans were not reached. And the one area where we saw real positive change on that was on homelessness, a very aggressive effort to end chronic veteran’s homelessness. That succeeded thank God. It was based on intensive outreach, and you’re going see more and more of that. This is a new thing. I want to see it go a lot farther.

Lehrer: Well, from Julianna in Bushwick with mold in her apartment to Chazz Palminteri lobbying for Mother Cabrini statue and apologizing to your wife for saying she was engaging in racism for not having a Mother Cabrini statue. You never know what happens on Ask the Mayor. So, Mr. Mayor –

Mayor: Only in New York, Brian.

Lehrer: Indeed. Thanks as always, talk to you next week.

Mayor: Thank you man, take care.