Transcript: Mayor de Blasio Appears Live on MSNBC's Velshi & Ruhle

July 11, 2019

Ali Velshi: Welcome back to Velshi & Ruhle. Overnight, we learned the Trump administration is reportedly planning to carry out nationwide immigration raids this Sunday, according to two senior Department of Homeland Security officials. They are expected to happen in 10 major cities, including right here in New York. The Mayor of New York City and 2020 Democratic presidential candidate Bill de Blasio joins us now. We were – just before we started, Stephanie, I think, was asking the question that a lot of people have in this country.

Stephanie Ruhle: The raids – the raids that the President called for, is planning on, what's the actual point of them?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: I think it is to create a culture of fear and division. I think it's a political act to convince a lot of people in American that immigrants are the problem. You know, I said this at the first Democratic debate – the immigrants did not create people's economic suffering. The folks who are middle class, working class American citizens who feel like the American dream has passed them by – the immigrants didn't do that to them, the folks working in the fields, the folks working in the kitchens didn't do that to them. The big corporations, the powers that be did that to them – had the power to determine the economy – that's who did it to them. But the President is very clever –

Ruhle: But hold on, hold on – are we saying, corporate American is to blame for those people in America feeling displaced and sad? Wasn't it more, we saw technology – an evolution of business? But to say, corporate America is to blame for the fact that you feel miserable and disenfranchised, is corporate America the boogeyman?

Mayor: Corporate America fought very hard and the one percent fought very hard for tax rates that gave them lots of tax breaks that made it impossible for the federal government to invest in communities that would have helped working people. Corporate America passed NAFTA originally and a million American jobs left the country.

Ruhle: The U.S. government passed NAFTA.

Mayor: But let's face it, it was written with the full participation of corporate America. And the new NAFTA, by the way, is of, and, by and for corporate America and the one percent – even worse – and now it's a moment of truth for Democrats. I think any Democrat that is willing to vote for a new NAFTA is going to be repudiated by this Democratic Party today. We've got to get to the heart of the matter. We've got an American economy that's not working for working people. Instead of being divided against immigrants, we have to go to how this actually happened. NAFTA is one of the reasons it happened. I'm calling on Democrats to say, don't even let it get to the floor, reject it out of hand, because NAFTA's part of what put in this mess to begin with. And some Democrats, bluntly, just like Republicans, were complicit in the old NAFTA and might be complicit in the new NAFTA, and American workers are not going to stand for it. That's where this real problem began.

Velshi: Let's go back to before we had all of these big trade deals when trade was, maybe, 20 percent of GDP. Now, it's more than 60 percent of GDP. Trade promised a lot of things – it promised, great GDP growth – we got that; it promised great share price profitability – we got that; it promised increases in wages – that, we didn't get.

Mayor: Not even close.

Velshi: But the money's there – trade made us all richer. Isn't the problem how we dealt with the riches? Should we be against trade? Or should we be saying – hey, our state and federal government should be taking the enhanced riches that trade has given us and re-training, and helping people move, and helping people get into the jobs they want. Isn't being against trade, sort of, the wrong idea?

Mayor: I'm not against trade and I don't think any progressive should be against trade. We want fair trade. I always say there's plenty of money in this world, plenty of money in this country, it's just in the wrong hands. So, to your point, yeah, there's lots of wealth that got created, but then it was distributed very, very narrowly, and the rich have gotten richer, richer, richer. Here's what we could do with a fair trade [inaudible]. Let's make it worker-centric. Let's actually figure out what's going to empower working people. For example, the opportunity for labor unions to bargain internationally, not just nationally – that could be codified in a trade deal. There's plenty of elements – we saw it in NAFTA, we saw it in TPP – that favored the power of corporations and the prerogatives of corporations. What if you did the same for labor unions? What if you not only put in higher standards for workers, for their wages, for their benefits, for their working conditions, but you said we're going to give the organizations that represent working people actual power in the equation because everything is multi-national now.

Velshi: Which they do in Germany.

Mayor: Right.

Velshi: There's an example of them doing that.

Velshi: We do have to talk to you about Jeffrey Epstein –

Ruhle: These ICE raids –

Velshi: What did you want to talk about?

Ruhle: The ICE raids, quickly. They're supposed to start here Sunday in New York. What are you going to do about it?

Mayor: One, get the truth out to people. And first of all, Donald Trump can posture all he wants –

Ruhle: Yeah, but the truth isn't going to stop the ICE raids.

Mayor: Well, let's be clear – he's not taking 11 million people out of the United States of America or the economy will collapse. I think you guys would be experts on that point, it would not work. So, this is about fear again. What we do to conflict with that, to fight that back is to say, we'll give you real information. Anyone in New York who needs to know what's going on, they call 3-1-1 – single-number, multi-language. They can find out what's really happening. All of our City personnel know we do not cooperate with ICE. We tell people their rights. We protect them. And, God forbid, let's say someone's picked up and that means their family doesn't know what's going on. A family is fearing being torn apart – the bread-winner, in so many cases, being sent back to another country and the family being left here. We in New York provide legal assistance. We'll literally give that family a lawyer to try and keep them together, because it's not only immoral to split them up, but, you know what, if that family is left behind with no support, the taxpayers are going to end up having to deal with that – the federal government's not going to be there for us. So, we're actually trying to help the families directly, but first it starts with trying to take away the fear and say – we have your back; we're going to give you real information; don't believe rumors; call a specific hotline, find out what's really going on; talk to a police officer; talk to a teacher; talk to someone in the community who can tell you what's really happening.

Ruhle: Alright, we've got other rumors we want to talk about – Epstein.

Velshi: Yeah, what's this discussion? I'm sure you've had a conversation with the Police Department here, that the Department did not require Epstein to check in with them unless his reporting address with in New York City, which it was not. So, Jeffery Epstein's been living here for a long time as a registered sex offender and hasn't had to check in?

Mayor: Yeah – something's very broken. My understanding is this was done something like 10 years ago, so it was before my time as Mayor, but that doesn't make me feel good about it. I think the laws are broken because apparently he gamed the system, he used a legal loophole to get away with it. I'm going to instruct the NYPD to look at the situation to see whether it's him, or anyone – if we can fight back legally or in any way and not let someone, particularly a wealthy person, get away with a game like that. It's ridiculous. He should have had to report in all the time, he's a danger to society.

Velshi: I want to ask you one thing – back to immigration for a second – because we just had your 2020 competitor Julian Castro on from an event that he's at with some of the other presidential candidates. He is making a case for essentially the decriminalization of coming across the border without authorization. He does want it to go back to being a misdemeanor. There are a lot of people who say that plays into Donald Trump's argument that Democrats are for open borders, because if you can just come into America on a misdemeanor, along as you get across, that means there's some likelihood – likely chance you'll become a citizen. How do you look at this? What should it – what should happen to people who come across the border without authorization, assuming they're not asylum seekers?

Mayor: Right, asylum seekers is its own track that used to work fine before Donald Trump came along.

Ruhle: Hold on, you think asylum seeking was working no problem –

Velshi: It was just a backlog, but –

Mayor: It was a process –

Velshi: But it was a backlog –

Velshi: But most people who sought asylum didn't get it. The numbers were well under 10 percent in most cases.

Mayor: There was a coherent process, with some fairness to it – not family separations, zero tolerance, any of this. But on your very fair question – look, first of all, I say abolish ICE, but we still need border security, of course. We still need a process. We should have comprehensive immigration reform, a path to citizenship. We should have a guest-worker program – we need it in America. You know, all of the things that fuel our economy we don't have enough working people to do them in so many cases. I've been out in Iowa a lot – crops are going unpicked, that's just a reality. So, why don't we stop this don't ask, don't tell that has been immigration in America for decades and say these folks are part of the American economy, we're actually going to need more people to help fuel the economy. Let's do it in a systematic fashion. If you don't do it the right way, you still can be turned back – I think that's right. But I agree with Castro on the point that the kinds of things that we really want to stop – the drug dealers, the violence – that's covered by plenty of other laws. But I just want to finish on this point – look at the way working people have been divided, citizen versus immigrant, white versus black –

Ruhle: Because there's this idea from those citizens who say, the government only cares about immigrants, they're not caring about me and my rural community or the fact that my hospital is closing –

Mayor: Right, and they feel that – no, but, you know – but, Stephanie, to that point, because they saw their hospital close, they saw the school consolidated, they saw NAFTA happen and a million manufacturing jobs go away –

Ruhle: And they see Democratic candidates at the border, at the border, and not in their town.

Mayor: And they need to be in their town, you're right about that. They need to be focused in their town, talking to them. But here's a moment of reckoning for the Democratic Party, because Democrats and Republicans both gave us the original NAFTA. Democrats and Republicans both, I fear, are about to give us the new NAFTA – just as bad or worse. Joe Biden is someone who voted for the original NAFTA. Democrats this time had to say – no way, NAFTA. Shut it down as a beginning of answering your point that we're actually going to do something for working people. Democrats today are not identified as the party of working people, and if they don't get it right, if we don't do this in the next year, Donald Trump wins re-election.

Ruhle: Mayor, I'm not suggesting ever pandering to corporate America, but what happens when corporate America says – got it, thanks, we're going to take our business elsewhere. We need jobs to exist here.

Mayor: Biggest market still in the world – we have so much going for us that still could be a basis for helping working people. But you've, to your great credit – you two amongst all the media have been some the people saying the most stagnant real wages for decades. That is not the American dream. That is not what we all signed up for. That's not what our forefathers were a part of.

Ruhle: So you've got to change the rules of Capitalism.

Mayor: Not the rules of Capitalism, the way government deals with Capitalism, because NAFTA empowered corporations over workers, the tax rate empowers the wealthy over working people. That cynicism that working people rightly feel – it's at Republicans and Democrats both, the difference this time is Democrats could actually take a stand and show we're going to do something different and regain some of that faith.

Velshi: But their cynicism is valid when directed at both parties –

Mayor: It should be – and both –

Velshi: – because historically both parties have contributed –

Mayor: – but here's the chance that – Donald Trump has done more for the one percent, starting with that tax cut and with the new NAFTA – more in two years than in probably the history of this country – any President did for the folks who already had wealth and power. This could be the perfect moments for Democrats to separate and say we're actually the party of working people again, but we have to have that honest conversation. It's about the heart and soul of the Democratic Party and where this country is going, and that's what these debates need to be about, and a lot of Democrats are not giving an answer. I'm going to get up there and say, time to represent, time to be real that you're actually on the side of working people and you'll take the risk of fighting for working people against those who have wealth and power.

Ruhle: Are you going to be able to get up there? Andrew Yang, another New Yorker, has raised $2.8 million in the last quarter. How are you doing?

Mayor: Look, I have what I need to keep going. I'm looking forward to the debates at the end of this month. I got five-and-a-half minutes in the last debate and I got a lot out there. I said a lot that people heard and felt, and I'm going to do it again and then keep going from there.

Velshi: Mayor, good to see you. Thank you for joining us.

Mayor: Thank you.