Transcript: Mayor de Blasio Appears Live on WNYC

January 20, 2017

Brian Lehrer: It’s the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. And obviously it’s inauguration day. We will carry the inaugural address, and we’ll take calls later from many of you before it starts. Whether this moment gives you hope for a fresh, unconventional reset for our country or a feeling of dread in the pit of your stomach for who Donald Trump might hurt, you will all be welcome here. And by the luck of the draw – because inauguration day falls on a Friday when we start the show with our weekly Ask the Mayor segment – Mayor de Blasio gets the first word today. We’ll talk about the change of power and other things. Mr. Mayor, welcome back to WNYC.

And we’ll get Mayor de Blasio up there in just a second.

And listeners, our Ask the Mayor lines are open. And today, considering the moment, ask the Mayor anything about running New York during a Trump administration. Seriously, there are many implications having to do with different aspects of policy, different things in the city, and the city’s relationship with the federal government, and how they might help or hurt us. So ask the Mayor anything about running New York during a Trump administration – 2-1-2-4-3-3-W-N-Y-C; 4-3-3-9-6-9-2.

Now I think we have you Mr. Mayor. You there?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: I’m right here.

Lehrer: Hi.

Mayor: I was here before, and I’m still here.

[Laughter]

Lehrer: All right. It was our fault. And to acknowledge what day this is – how are you feeling this morning knowing Donald Trump is about to be inaugurated?

Mayor: Resolute – I really am. Brian, look – I think we need to first take Donald Trump on his word, which means: do not take likely all the things he said he would do that are really going to set back New York City and the people of New York City in a lot of ways. I think it is our responsibility to not belittle the challenge and to fight any of the policies that he would bring forward that would hurt our people. At the same time, there will always be an open hand for any serious effort to do real, practical work that gets things done for people. But I’m really in a mode right now of, you know: show me, don’t tell me. Everything we’ve heard – almost without exception – is worrisome in terms of what it would mean for New York City. If anyone wants to tell me: don’t be worried, it’s going to be better than you think, I need to see actions that prove that to me. And until that point, I think it’s our obligation to stand, and fight, and be strong.

Lehrer: You know, Democrats and Republicans don’t like when the other party takes power. There was so much disdain for Bill Clinton from day one. I hosted an NPR show from Washington on Veteran’s Day, November 11, 1992 – just days after Clinton was elected. And there was this big, loud protest already by people who saw him as a Vietnam draft dodger. The Democrats barely saw Bush 43 as a legitimate president after the Bush v. Gore debacle. People called him the Resident of the United States – maybe you remember. Is this different for you? Or is this just what happens in a long-term, passionately divided country and we forget?

Mayor: I think your – your analogy is a powerful one. I’m going to just parse it for a second. Compared to those two examples you gave, this is much more extreme. Donald Trump got three million fewer votes than his opponent. There is no precedent for this in the history of this country. Hillary Clinton represented more of a majority view than Donald Trump did, but Donald Trump is going to take office because of an electoral college system that has to be abolished and is outmoded at this point. When you compare it to those other two examples, it’s quite clear the Supreme Court gave the election to George W. Bush, and he also lost the popular vote, and it’s very questionable what really happened in Florida. But that was intervention by a Republican Supreme Court, and that left people feeling very burned for a good reason. I think the Bill Clinton analogy – the only – the only piece that holds there is of course Bill Clinton ran in an unusual three-way, three major candidate race – didn’t have 51 percent of the vote. But compare to how George W. Bush became president or Donald Trump became president, that’s apples and oranges. I think you’re right there’s a sharp, sharp division in the country that has to be addressed. But I don’t bemoan it as you know – look at these strong passions and why people aren’t immediately embracing. I think there’s a lot of issues that have to be sorted out in this country that haven’t been and Donald Trump understood that and took advantage of that situation, honestly. But I would say, compared to those other two examples – this is actually the most extreme. He has the least true mandate, and the most extreme policies he’s recommending, and the least popularity coming in the door. I think it’s going to be very tough for him to win majority support under those conditions.

Lehrer: Let me get to a couple of specifics then. You met with the President-elect after the election. And Governor Cuomo met with him just the other day and raised the issues of how New York could be hurt by repealing Obamacare and by repealing the federal income tax deduction for state and local taxes. Do you want to echo those concerns in any way? Like a lot of people may not – may think – 

Mayor: Sure.

Lehrer: State and local taxes – what?

Mayor: When I met with President-elect Trump, which was eight days after the election, we actually had a substantial conversation on this issue of state and local tax deductibility. You know I went in with a set of things I wanted to tell him were going to hurt the people of New York City – the people of his very own city he grew up in. Obviously things like repealing Obamacare, cutting taxes for the wealthy and the corporations that would take resources away from affordable housing and other things we need; deportations; Muslim registry – I went down a whole list – re-instituting stop-and-frisk. I went over all those issues, and we had a very substantial conversation. But we also talked about state and local taxes, and the simple explanation is this: right now, all over this country, if you pay your state and local taxes, you can deduct them from what you pay federally. If that deduction is no longer allowed, it’s going to upend a lot of the ways that government services are funded in this country. And potentially put huge stress on particularly local budgets. And again, I’m very careful not to characterize the President-elect’s position in the conversations, but I will say I think he – he fully was focused on the issue. And as a New Yorker, I hope this is an area we understand the ramifications of what could happen here.

Lehrer: And one other one before we take some calls. We’ve talked about New York as a sanctuary city before – you and me. Do you think Trump plans to financially penalize New York for a being a sanctuary city?

Mayor: We don’t know. But let me say two things. One, any effort to defund any part of this country that’s trying to work with its own residents – in our case, 500,000 people undocumented – that will find a huge backlash all over this country. It’s going to a find a – you’ll see a backlash from faith leaders of all backgrounds. You’ll see a backlash. You’ll see a backlash from police leaders who have made very clear – our Police Commissioner said this; Charlie Beck, the Police Chief of L.A. has said this – that anything that moves an agenda of separately in neighborhoods from their police and furthers the idea separating those who are undocumented from those who are documented and suggest that government is going to report people or penalize localities if they have undocumented folks. But that’s going to make policing harder. And I think we have to start to evolve this discussion. I think the right-wing has taken the whole concept of cities working with their own residents. It is not fair humanly because there are human beings. It doesn’t conform with any of our faith traditions to ignore people who live among us, and work, and contribute to our society. It doesn’t make sense in terms of separating families, some of whom are undocumented, some of whom are documented. But I’ll tell you – I think the law enforcement piece, Brian, is going to be a crucial part of this discussion because you’re going to hear police chiefs all over the city say: any effort to defund cities or states is going to make it harder for them to do their work and is actually going to lead to a potential increase in crime because if communities and police are not able to communicate and partner, we all get less safe.

Lehrer: Diana on the Upper East Side, you’re on WNYC with Mayor de Blasio. Hello, Diana.

Question: Hi, it’s Diana [inaudible]. I’ve been crying all morning because of this upcoming inauguration. But anyway, I have a lifelong friend named Lucia who’s had MS, multiple sclerosis, for 30 years. She relies on Medicaid and public assistance; she’s in a wheel chair. She’s terrified that the Trump administration will do away with Medicaid and that she will die. It costs literally $10,000 a month to keep her alive. Obviously she doesn’t have it.

Lehrer: Diana, may I ask – was she on Medicaid before the Obamacare expansion of Medicaid eligibility?

Question: Yes, she was.

Lehrer: So, your concern is that they may retract Medicaid so much that she would lose her benefit going forward?

Question: That is her concern.

Lehrer: Mr. Mayor, any indication?

Mayor: I think that Diana is right to be concerned for Lucia and that we have to take this very seriously. The – there is – this is not just about President-elect Trump. This is about the Congress – a Congress that for a long time has wanted to cut back government and cut back support for working people and for healthcare. We got to be really clear – the President-elect has not given us a clear vision of where he’s going. There’s obviously people in the Congress and in the White House talking about – or about to be in the White House talking about repeal with no replacement. And when I was down in Washington the last few days with my fellow mayors, the Conference of Mayors – this was a theme that both Democratic and Republican mayors were talking about. It is not responsible to discuss repeal without a full replacement plan that keeps everyone currently covered, covered. And so I think those who are worried right now should be worried and they should take that worry and turn it into action to let the President-elect and all the members of Congress know that we cannot take away healthcare from 20 million people who got it through Obamacare and millions, millions more who got Medicaid because of Obamacare. And we can’t risk the chance of losing gains that were made even before Obama because there was a faction, particularly the freedom caucus in the House that would like to defund a lot of what we do in government and retrench. And we have to take that seriously. But I’ll tell you again – I think we talk about the American majority. I think this is what’s going to come out in these coming weeks and months. The American majority does not want to see people thrown off their healthcare. They don’t want to see us go backwards. There’s things they’d like to change perhaps and improve, but they do not want to see millions of people without healthcare. And this is where we have the high moral ground.

Lehrer: And on Medicaid, Diana and her friend with MS who she said was on Medicaid even before the expansion of eligibility under the Affordable Care Act – you know they talk in the Republican Congress about ending Medicaid as a federal entitlement and just giving block grants to the states. Do you want to comment specifically on how you think that would affect New York?

Mayor: Yes, Brian, that’s crucial point. The history of block grants – this is a favorite tactic of Congressional Republicans to take any kind of initiative that is targeted to the actual needs of the people on the ground all over the country. So, for example Medicaid – that’s supposed to reach people who need healthcare and have a certain economic reality. Well, the way it’s structured now is it is about the number of people who need to be served and getting them healthcare.

What’s happened over the years with similar initiatives – I’ll use a great example from housing, the HUD 202 program which created affordable senior housing. It was incredibly effective, very deeply appreciated by senior citizens all over the country. What did the Republicans do? They said, no, we’re not going to do that kind of thing anymore. We’re going to block grant. We’re going to give money to localities with no definition, no connection to how many people need it. What happened? It was a way of diminishing funding slowly but surely, reducing the kind of support people got. A lot of states, unfortunately, started to raid that money and do other things with it.

So, when you hear block grant, beware. It is a tactic for defunding and for making government smaller. You know, Medicaid is one of the things that has worked. I mean, Medicare as well is really respected around this country for the good it’s done for people. We have to be very clear – those ideas which stem from the New Deal and the Great Society were about serving each American – not finding a way to nickel and dime so much that a lot of people get left out in the cold.

And I think when the American people start to understand that block grant means less healthcare, you’re going to see a real backlash.

Lehrer: Here is the most frequently asked question on our board right now. We could go to a number of people who are asking the same question about the City’s relationship with the incoming Trump administration. And we’re going to let Cassius in Bed-Stuy do the honor. Cassius you’re on WNYC.

Question: Wow. Thank you, Brian. I’m honored.

[Laughter]

Mr. Mayor, what exactly are you going to do about this nutty idea he has of, like, living here on Fifth Avenue half-time or him coming back here very frequently? Because he just screws up the traffic so much and we really need you guys to tell him like he has to – he and his wife – have to totally go live there in the White House. They can’t keep – live here half the time or something or come back here so frequently when they’re screwing up the traffic constantly.

Mayor: Cassius, let me say two things. One – I don’t believe, as he experiences the fullness of his office, and this certainly is reflective of what I’ve heard so far in dealing with the Trump team and our security folks trying to make the arrangements. I think it will be clearer and clearer to him that it’s hard to come back to New York as often as he might like. That’s my personal view.

But I also have to be honest. I don’t think it is fair for someone certainly in my position, to tell the President where he can be and not be. He has to do what he feels is right for his family and his ability to do his job. On one level, him being in New York at least some of the time, from time to time, will give him I think a reminder of what the real impact of these policies are on human beings. And one thing I always fear about any leader is when they go off in the bubble and they start getting distant from the people who they’re supposed to serve.

So, I don’t think it’s a real simple equation but if I’m betting based on what I’m seeing at this point, I think he will not be here as often as you might have originally hoped. And I think after June, there’s a good chance that his family moves down there fully and his reality shifts even more to Washington.

In the meantime, of course, we’re going to work very hard to get fully reimbursed for all of the expenses that the NYPD is incurring and, again, based on conversations I’ve had both with Congressional leaders and with the Trump team, I remain optimistic that we will ultimately get a lot of that money back.

Lehrer: Cassius thank you for your call. Here’s a Trump supporter calling in. Michael, in Elizabeth – Michael, you’re on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling.

Question: Hi, how are you today?

Lehrer: Good, thank you – your question for Mayor de Blasio?

Question: Yeah, basically are you going to give Trump a chance. I mean there’s been a lot of things in this station – I’ve listened to you for years and nothing else, and then this election basically everything is completely one-sided. Even before saying Trump talking about repealing without something to replace. He said – you can look up on YouTube – many times the different plans he had to replace it. The way you presented it is that he has no plan. It just seems that it’s basically meant to, you know, trick the listeners into seeing a one sided view of it in order to cause tension for Trump.

Mayor: Well, Michael, look, I don’t respect that – the President-elect said some things about his vision for replacing Obamacare. I think it’s an objective fact he has not put forward a full plan nor have the Congressional Republicans and that yet they already moved forward the repeal vote.  So, I don’t think that’s encouraging.

But look, to your core question – how do you work with a new president? My view is I think he respects strength. I think he respects people standing up for what they believe. We’re going to do that here in New York City. I went to meet with him explicitly to say here’s where I think the things you have said, the policy you put out are going to do to people in my city, and obviously, appealing to him to reconsider.

But I’ve also said very publicly if he comes forward with ideas and policies that are going to help New York City and the people of New York City, of course, we’re going to look for common ground.

I think the difference in this election compared to any previous election is – and I respect why a lot of people felt that Donald Trump was speaking to things that they did not hear from other candidates, and everyone has to make their own judgement on that. But what I heard was a host of proposals that would hurt my people and I want some proof that that’s not going to happen. I think that’s a responsible thing for a leader to do in terms of defending our own people.

Lehrer: I do what to raise a few other issues today. We talked about federal health care changes as threats to the city. I see that Governor Cuomo’s proposed budget for the State might shift more of the financial burden for that to the city – for Medicaid – to the city. Have you looked at that?

Mayor: Yes, Brian, at this point, you know, the State budget just came out and a lot of detail has still not been fully revealed and reviewed, and we’re going to do that. Here’s what I’d say – the initial look at the State budget – certainly some good things. I obviously believe in the extension of the millionaire’s tax. That has to happen. I think the free college tuition proposal is very important and very promising. I want to particularly focus on the election reform initiatives which we need to move in the State desperately, and you guys have paid a lot of attention to that to your credit. But there are real questions at the same time about whether there are some overt or covert shifting of costs on healthcare and not just on healthcare and Medicaid but on other areas like special education and foster care. So, there’s a lot to review before we can give a final judgement. I’m going up to Albany on January 30 to testify on the State budget and that’s when I can give a much clearer analysis.

Lehrer: We’ve got your City budget draft coming next year. Want to make any news with a highlight?

Mayor: No – no previews except to say we’re going to put forward a vision that addresses a lot of the things that New Yorkers talk to me about every day. I mean people – when I talk to New Yorkers, first and foremost, it’s about affordability and it’s about affordable housing concerns and people being able to live in their own neighborhoods and live in this city.

We’ll be talking about that in different ways between the preliminary budget and the State of the City. But we also are going to present a budget that takes into account the fact that there are a lot of unknowns here. We – I don’t think we’ve ever had so much uncertainty from the federal side certainly not – you’d have to go all the way back to the fiscal crisis to find a time where the reality of the federal role in this city has been so unclear, and even in some ways now even unprecedented.

So, I’m going to present a budget that talks about the needs of New Yorkers and what the City can do but I’m also going to constantly remind people there’s a lot that has to play out in Washington that will determine moves we have to make as we move along.

Lehrer: Another issue – City Council, this week started discussing a package of bills as you know designed to reduce construction accidents. And depending on who you count, 24 to 31 people have been killed in New York City construction accidents the last two years. But, you’ve been said to have some reservations about these bills. Will you sign the package as they its written?

Mayor: Again, Brian, let me start at the beginning. This is a real problem. We have had a huge uptick in construction and a lot of the companies doing this construction are not handling it properly and their workers are being put in a dangerous situation and we’re not going to stand for that. We’ve already taken a series of very aggressive actions. We’re adding 140 new enforcement inspectors from our Buildings Department to crack down on these building sites. We’re requiring additional supervision at sites. We’ve increased the fines. We’ve quadrupled the fines in a number of areas.

So, we’re going to really crack down on any construction company that doesn’t do the right thing and endangers their own people. There’s a whole package of additional changes coming between the administration and the City Council. As for the legislation, we’re still looking at it. I think there’s some very good ideas in it. I think there are some things that might be hard to do in practice but we’re going to work it through. The bottom line is that we have to address this issue even more aggressively. I know some of the things that we’ve done already are having an impact but we got a lot more to do.

Lehrer: Here’s a guest we had this week, Dominque Bravo, from the Pathways 2 Apprenticeship program, on why she thinks so many people are getting killed.

Dominique Bravo, Pathways 2 Apprenticeship: The vast majority of these deaths and injuries occur on non-union sites because those workers are not trained. They are not trained and the reason that these accidents don’t occur on union sites are because union workers are trained. And they are not only trained; they don’t have the fear that they are going to lose their jobs if they do safety precautions.

Lehrer: Now, you’ve been opposed, in the past, to a measure that would require union construction on affordable housing projects and I gather you’re opposed to requiring the kind of training program that she’s talking about.

Mayor: No, Brian that’s a fundamental mischaracterization. I don’t know where you’re getting your information. I have said about a thousand times I would like affordable housing to be all union, ideally. I believe fundamentally in union membership in every sector in our society and I have acted on it in many, many ways as mayor. But I have also said we have a huge amount of affordable housing to create for people who are struggling in this city. And I have said openly for years, long before I was mayor that the construction unions, I think, have to look for some common ground on what the rates are on affordable housing development, which is different than for profit development. I think from an obvious perspective that any private sector unions should get the highest wages they can for their workers on the private sector work. But when you’re talking about government subsidized work where the costs totally determine how many apartments we can build for working people in need, I have asked for a middle ground. But I want that construction to be union. Equally, I believe in the apprenticeship programs –

Lehrer: You want to – just to be clear, you want it to be union, but you opposed the provision in a state bill that would have required it to be, right?

Mayor: No, that’s not accurate either. The provision in the State bill was about a prevailing wage level. And again, fundamentally contradicted what I just said. We believe – absolutely understand and believe in prevailing wage for pure private sector construction. But when we’re talking about government subsidized affordable housing I have said clearly it should be union construction, but with a different rate so that we can afford to do as many apartments as possible. I also believe in apprenticeship programs. I have supported them in many ways. If you look at what is going on in this city government and the project labor agreements we have signed – some of the biggest ever – to make sure there is union construction work done on a host of city efforts. I believe in the apprenticeship program. What I said very bluntly has been fundamentally mischaracterized is – right now this work is happening. People are in danger right now Brian. Construction workers are in danger right now. Apprenticeship programs are very powerful and a good idea. They will take years to put in place. A huge number of sites are non-union to begin with. And we need to address the safety problem right now. So, I want to see as much growth of apprenticeship as possible, but I’ve got to deal with the safety issue here and now. And these pieces of legislation are not going to reach all of that. We’ve got to do other thigs beyond it.

Lehrer: Just to be clear on one of those points, Crain’s reported that you have expressed skepticism about a requirement in one of the City Council bills, which developers oppose, to use apprenticeship programs as a requirement because of the additional safety that the unions say these confer to workers. Is that wrong?

Mayor: That is wrong again. And Brian, respectfully I really enjoy our dialogues, but I don’t know where you’re getting some of your information because it just is not accurate. I wish you actually look at what we say too, not just what Crain’s or other outlets say. I believe fundamentally, again –

I want – my vision for society is maximum union membership. I think apprenticeship programs are crucial to that goal. I think we have to be honest about the huge amount of construction work happening right this minute in New York City that is non-union. And that is a whole history that can be discussed as well – how did it get that way, but it is true right now. And where these problems are happening – those who say Dominique is right, “union worksites are safer and better.” I’ve always believed that, but the notion that we can flip a switch and make everything union overnight is not real. I want to get there, but we have to be clear about the safety problem in the here and now and address it will all the [inaudible]. We’ve added the fines, we’ve added the construction supervisors, we added the enforcement inspectors and there is a lot more to do right now while building toward a day, which I do believe in, of maximum union membership at construction sites.

Lehrer: Sarah in Harlem, you’re on WNYC with Mayor de Blasio –
Hi, Sarah.

Question: Hi, Brian – love your show. Good morning, Mr. Mayor.

Mayor: Good morning.

Question:  I am a mother of three and I have two questions. One is regarding the repeal of the Affordable Care Act, and what the City has in place to maintain Child Health Plus or child medical coverage if the repeal goes [inaudible]? And my second question is about education; pre-k for children in New York City – there is a sweeping move with the new pending secretary of education.

Mayor: I appreciate the question, Sarah.

On the second one I would say – first of all, it is not clear that secretary-designate is going to get confirmed. A lot of questions are coming up about her, but I also want to say we learned a long time ago that the federal department of education has some impact on the work we do, but nowhere near the impact you might imagine. Schools are run locally and we are 100 percent devoted to our pre-k program. It is not going anywhere. The State of New York is as well and I commend the governor and the legislature for that fact. So, pre-k is here to stay. There are some other issues that the education sectary might have a negative impact on, obviously her move for school vouchers could undermine public education in New York City and all over the country, but I think that one will also find a lot of resistance even in this Congress.

On the question of the Affordable Care Act, look, we’ve got to start fighting right now. There have been demonstrations all over the country. This weekend, the Conference of Mayors – mayors are working together. And it was very powerful, yesterday, the Republican mayors standing up at the Conference of Mayors and saying they are telling their senators and their Congress members that repeal of the Affordable Care Act is going to hurt their communities, hurt their hospitals, and it is unconscionable to move forward with it without actually putting forward a plan that can keep people protected. So, I think there is a gathering storm on the real ramifications of this. But one thing I’m hearing more and more because the Republicans don’t have a plan and because they recognize they pitted themselves in a corner now; I think it could be years before some of the things change on the ground. That’s why we have our Get Covered NYC campaign. We’re going to keep signing more and more people up for health insurance under the Affordable Care Act because it is the law of the land right now and it is not going to stop being the law of the land anytime soon. We’ve got to keep getting people covered, not only because they deserve the coverage, but second because it is going to be harder to get rid of – the more people who participate the harder it will be to get rid of.

Lehrer: On vouchers, it’s not just Betsy DeVos; even if she doesn’t get confirmed as an individual this is a court policy of Trump’s. As I think you know, this is one of the few issues that he actually put in writing on his campaign website during the course of the campaign. And they’re probably going to try to do that – vouchers for private school in one way or another. I know California has a law prohibiting public funds from being used on religious education. Do you know if New York State has such a law?

Mayor: I don’t know enough about the laws of New York State, but I can say this much on the voucher question. You know, lost in this whole discussion of where we stand as a country on issues like this is the fact that Donald Trump got three million fewer votes. The Democrats gained two seats in the Senate, six seats in the House. This was not an election where the American people agreed to a fundamental ideological shift on these kinds of issues. The reason I say that is when an issue like vouchers comes before a Senate that is split 52-48 or even a House where there is a lot of Republican members who are going to hear from parents in their district who don’t want to see their public schools defunded. Listen, in rural in America and suburban America, the public schools are where education happens. They don’t have in many of these places charter schools; they don’t have anywhere near as many religious schools as in some other urban areas. In much of America, including much of America that voted for Donald Trump, public education is where kids get served and there is tremendous pride in connection to it. I think parents are going to let their representatives know very squarely that anything that would defund public education will actually hurt their rural and suburban schools just as much as it will hurt our urban schools.

Lehrer: Before you go, I just want to get clarification on one thing you said before about Governor Cuomo’s budget proposal. You said you had real questions about covert cost-shifting to the City. What do you mean covert cost –

Mayor: Figure of speech, Brian – meaning to say that when you look at budget sometimes there are more there than meets the eye. And that we want to very carefully analyze all that is going on. You know last time, the Governor in his budget put forward very direct, sharp cuts to our funding for CUNY and for Medicaid and therefore for our public hospitals. This time certainly we see something better, but the devil is always in the details. So, that is why we want to look at the fine print. We want to look at all of the ramifications before passing judgement because as you said there does appear to be some areas where there maybe cost shifts and we want to bring that out in the open.

Lehrer: Alright, are you going to the Women’s March in New York or Washington tomorrow?

Mayor: I’m going to be well represented. Our couple is going to be well represented by my wife, our First Lady, Chirlane McCray at the New York march.

Lehrer: Thank you very much as always. Talk to you next week.

Mayor: Take care, Brian.